9 ms·

This article fails to mention that the middle class can't afford to live in the "nicest parts" of cities, but many cities have other areas as well. Take NYC for

This article fails to mention that the middle class can't afford to live in the "nicest parts" of cities, but many cities have other areas as well. Take NYC for example. Sure, if you want to live in the Chelsea or West Village neighborhoods in Manhattan, it's going to cost you. But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in a decent part of Queens for $240k - definitely affordable for middle class. Unfortunately, though, the most desirable areas of the densest part of the city is being reserved for poor and upper class, which I think is the point of the article.

1_2__3 10y ago
Link to that Queens listing? Or one like it? Not that I don't believe you but... I kind of don't believe you.
- curun1r 10y ago
  There's no reason to disbelieve him when you can disbelieve the price. It's probably some agent pricing the listing below the seller's floor with the hope of generating lots of interest and a bidding war. Listing prices are pretty useless. Better to look at the prices homes actually sell for.
- cm2012 10y ago
  I've lived in Queens for 25 years. A house is minimum 400k, more often 500k in the towns furthest from Manhattan (Floral Park, Douglaston, Far Rockaway). Anything closer is 600-1 mil.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Quick search for recently sold houses http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11730-170th-St-Jamaica-NY-11434/32189780_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11730-170th-St-Jamaica-NY-... http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/332-Beach-89th-St-Rockaway-Beach-NY-11693/32225419_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/332-Beach-89th-St-Rockaway... http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17349-103rd-Rd-Jamaica-NY-11433/32140260_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17349-103rd-Rd-Jamaica-NY-...
deleted 10y ago
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schoolsman 10y ago
> But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in a decent part of Queens for $240k - definitely affordable for middle class. Do you have kids? Because this glib reaction signals that you don't, or you'd be aware that the areas you are touting as affordable have terrible public schools. That's why they're relatively cheap. That, and the hour-plus commutes (each way) to where most middle-class jobs are.
- JumpCrisscross 10y ago
  > terrible public schools There are affordable parts of Long Island and Connecticut with great public public schools less than an hour from Manhattan by train. We've grown accustomed to overporting our post-war suburban archetype of what a "middle class" family "deserves," i.e. lots of bedrooms, garages and lawn space, while diminishing previously (and still!) common practices like having roommates when young, not owning a car, et cetera.
  - gaius 10y ago
    Right. People expect to skip straight from 22 or even 18 to a late-20s or early-30s level of "stuff" and general lifestyle, without paying their dues in the middle. It's called a "property ladder" for a reason.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      Those 'entry-level' houses are being bought up by idle capital and rented on AirBnB.
      - stale2002 10y ago
        The entry level houses aren't even being built in the first place.
        alistairSH 10y ago
60654 10y ago
Exactly. There's also plenty of affordable housing stock in Chicago and LA, as long as you don't expect to live on the lake/ocean, don't expect a big suburban house, etc. That's the thing about big cities, there's usually a huge variety of housing at all price points - with a variety of pros and cons for sure, but the lack of housing at a variety of prices is typically not an issue.
- mixmastamyk 10y ago
  > There's also plenty of affordable housing stock in LA... Hahaha, I suppose if you're willing to live in near skid-row conditions.
  - sologoub 10y ago
    That's entirely untrue - you can find plenty of decent affordable neighborhoods in LA that have nothing in common with skid row. What you have to compromise on is traffic/long commute.
    - mixmastamyk 10y ago
      You'll have to be a lot more specific, and I currently work from home. We also have a school-aged child.
      - sologoub 10y ago
        Neighborhoods in LA vary greatly and depend on what you value. For example, if you want good schools, yard and say house under 700k, and want to commute to Santa Monica. Your best bet is West San Fernando Valley, such as Woodland Hills and parts of Calabasas. Thousand Oaks would reduce house costs to 400-600k, but add 20-30 mins to an already hour-long drive. Forget public transit. If you don't need to go to SM/Venice/West LA, then going south might be better. Orange County has a lot to offer and probably a bit cheaper. If you are ok with Condos/Townhomes, either direction, 2-3 br condo can be had for less than 400k, sometimes less than 300k. Most condos on the west side are more like 600-900k and above, so the drive can save you 50%, but it really sucks. (Did the drive for 6 years.)
danielweber 10y ago
Living in the nice part of big cities is a positional good. It's going to get more expensive as society gets more expensive, because you are trying to buy your way on top of a ladder. If you take a look at the top 40 or so entries here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistic... you will be able to pick out places with nice economies and reasonable housing costs.
rst 10y ago
Fort Hill, the neighborhood the article starts with and returns to repeatedly, is a lot more like Queens than like Chelsea -- and that's where people are getting priced out of now in Boston.
colordrops 10y ago
In L.A. there is no place with housing at that price, even dangerous neighborhoods with horrible schools. Even the "good" neighborhoods have pretty bad schools.

1_2__3 10y ago

Link to that Queens listing? Or one like it? Not that I don't believe you but... I kind of don't believe you.

curun1r 10y ago
There's no reason to disbelieve him when you can disbelieve the price. It's probably some agent pricing the listing below the seller's floor with the hope of generating lots of interest and a bidding war. Listing prices are pretty useless. Better to look at the prices homes actually sell for.
cm2012 10y ago
I've lived in Queens for 25 years. A house is minimum 400k, more often 500k in the towns furthest from Manhattan (Floral Park, Douglaston, Far Rockaway). Anything closer is 600-1 mil.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
Quick search for recently sold houses http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11730-170th-St-Jamaica-NY-11434/32189780_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11730-170th-St-Jamaica-NY-... http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/332-Beach-89th-St-Rockaway-Beach-NY-11693/32225419_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/332-Beach-89th-St-Rockaway... http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17349-103rd-Rd-Jamaica-NY-11433/32140260_zpid/ http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/17349-103rd-Rd-Jamaica-NY-...

deleted 10y ago

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schoolsman 10y ago

> But there are tons of available houses in Queens, Brooklyn, and the Bronx that are plenty affordable. The other day I saw a house for sale in a decent part of Queens for $240k - definitely affordable for middle class. Do you have kids? Because this glib reaction signals that you don't, or you'd be aware that the areas you are touting as affordable have terrible public schools. That's why they're relatively cheap. That, and the hour-plus commutes (each way) to where most middle-class jobs are.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> terrible public schools There are affordable parts of Long Island and Connecticut with great public public schools less than an hour from Manhattan by train. We've grown accustomed to overporting our post-war suburban archetype of what a "middle class" family "deserves," i.e. lots of bedrooms, garages and lawn space, while diminishing previously (and still!) common practices like having roommates when young, not owning a car, et cetera.
- gaius 10y ago
  Right. People expect to skip straight from 22 or even 18 to a late-20s or early-30s level of "stuff" and general lifestyle, without paying their dues in the middle. It's called a "property ladder" for a reason.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    Those 'entry-level' houses are being bought up by idle capital and rented on AirBnB.
    - stale2002 10y ago
      The entry level houses aren't even being built in the first place.
      - alistairSH 10y ago

60654 10y ago

Exactly. There's also plenty of affordable housing stock in Chicago and LA, as long as you don't expect to live on the lake/ocean, don't expect a big suburban house, etc. That's the thing about big cities, there's usually a huge variety of housing at all price points - with a variety of pros and cons for sure, but the lack of housing at a variety of prices is typically not an issue.

mixmastamyk 10y ago
> There's also plenty of affordable housing stock in LA... Hahaha, I suppose if you're willing to live in near skid-row conditions.
- sologoub 10y ago
  That's entirely untrue - you can find plenty of decent affordable neighborhoods in LA that have nothing in common with skid row. What you have to compromise on is traffic/long commute.
  - mixmastamyk 10y ago
    You'll have to be a lot more specific, and I currently work from home. We also have a school-aged child.
    - sologoub 10y ago
      Neighborhoods in LA vary greatly and depend on what you value. For example, if you want good schools, yard and say house under 700k, and want to commute to Santa Monica. Your best bet is West San Fernando Valley, such as Woodland Hills and parts of Calabasas. Thousand Oaks would reduce house costs to 400-600k, but add 20-30 mins to an already hour-long drive. Forget public transit. If you don't need to go to SM/Venice/West LA, then going south might be better. Orange County has a lot to offer and probably a bit cheaper. If you are ok with Condos/Townhomes, either direction, 2-3 br condo can be had for less than 400k, sometimes less than 300k. Most condos on the west side are more like 600-900k and above, so the drive can save you 50%, but it really sucks. (Did the drive for 6 years.)

danielweber 10y ago

Living in the nice part of big cities is a positional good. It's going to get more expensive as society gets more expensive, because you are trying to buy your way on top of a ladder. If you take a look at the top 40 or so entries here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistic... you will be able to pick out places with nice economies and reasonable housing costs.

rst 10y ago

Fort Hill, the neighborhood the article starts with and returns to repeatedly, is a lot more like Queens than like Chelsea -- and that's where people are getting priced out of now in Boston.

colordrops 10y ago

In L.A. there is no place with housing at that price, even dangerous neighborhoods with horrible schools. Even the "good" neighborhoods have pretty bad schools.