7 ms·

To all fellow software engineers out there: STOP reading company emails after work ALREADY! I don't care what your boss has told you or what your co-workers do.

by iagooar 10y ago

To all fellow software engineers out there: STOP reading company emails after work ALREADY! I don't care what your boss has told you or what your co-workers do. Just don't do it. Warning: this only applies to regular office workers, not management or freelancers. Are you getting paid for checking company emails after working hours? You are not, right? How is offering your limited, private time FOR FREE to a company worth it? Is your private life SO boring, you need to do something that many of us do not even like doing during office hours? Are you afraid to be the only one in your team to bring some sanity? Do you think your boss is going to respect you less if you put clear boundaries between work and private life? Do you think you might lose your job if you don't check emails at all hours? Might be time to start looking for a new job... I know, this post is a bit on the rough side, but I'm just trying to challenge the status quo for some people. I have personally met a lot of good, nice people who would think that they MUST do stuff for the company for free, after hours. Without any good reason. Actually, I had this one colleague who would check emails even very late at night, and if there was someone reporting a bug would jump in and try to fix it. And guess what? Countless times his code was really bad and it caused many more issues than it intended to solve in the first place.

mhurron 10y ago
> not management If management isn't also not reading mail/doing work after office hours than the whole thing falls apart.
- iagooar 10y ago
  Yes, but I don't care what managers do, they have other incentives and their time is (and should be) tracked differently.
  - mhurron 10y ago
    Managers manage people. If they are working, they require other people working to do their job. Basically if they business isn't onboard with the idea of not working after hours, it won't happen and those that try to force it risk being replaced with people that 'fit the company culture.'
    - iagooar 10y ago
      I understand what you are saying, and you are right. It's just that I didn't want to focus on management, since it's a whole different dimension. But I agree with what you are saying.
    - tbrownaw 10y ago
      Managers manage people. If they are working, they require other people working to do their job. Not really. The thing about email is that the boss can send one out after hours, and it will still be there in the morning.
  - paulddraper 10y ago
    > they have other incentives and their time is (and should be) tracked differently. Huh? The only difference between a manager and a non-manager is that the former manages others.
beezle 10y ago
I can understand that somebody who is paid hourly has no incentive to do anything work related once they leave the door (or clock if you prefer). For salaried employees, there are going to be times you need to work late, weekends, check email at home, whatever. It comes with the job. The problems occur when routine work is treated as high priority/time sensitive. But I'm not sold that legislating this is the best solution. Even the example given of somebody fixing bugs overnight w/ bad solutions - that is something management should have addressed. Unless a really critical system has crashed as a result, there is no good reason to fix it then and mgt. should make that clear.
- iagooar 10y ago
  > For salaried employees, there are going to be times you need to work late, weekends, check email at home, whatever. It comes with the job. Explain this to me. Nothing "comes with the job". Your job is your job and if you are working, say, 40 hours a week, it's more or less 8 hours a day. After 8 hours working, you go home and enjoy YOUR time. If companies want people to do company work while they are awake, they should basically double payrolls and pay for 16 hours, not just 8. Actually, not even in that case should it be OK. People are people and need to have their life and leisure time. If they don't have it, they start to feel overworked, stressed, depressed. In the end, it's not a net positive for the company either. THIS is precisely the attitude that leads some abusive bosses to believe that it's OK to expect people to sacrifice their free time. This should be a major offense, and should not be tolerated AT ALL in my opinion.
  - dnautics 10y ago
    The consequence of enforcing your attitude by law is that small companies will never be able to expand to compete with big businesses. Say your website goes down at an inopportune time for a market in another time zone. Sorry, there's no one that can fix it because you can't have someone handling emergencies that 'come with the job' off hours on a staff of five. Now you've lost a major market.
    - ryanbrunner 10y ago
delroth 10y ago
> Is your private life SO boring, you need to do something that many of us do not even like doing during office hours? Yes. Or rather, what happens at work is so interesting that it usually beats refreshing reddit for the 5th time in 10min while in the train.
- paulddraper 10y ago
  Boring private life is the leading cause of internet trolls.
- iagooar 10y ago
  Why not start a little side-project? Try new things? Or maybe find a hobby that is going to fill those boring hours with joy?
  - jasode 10y ago
    You write: "fill those _boring_ hours" ... in response to what the poster actually wrote: "work is _so interesting_" If you're rewriting what the poster wrote into words of opposite meaning, it doesn't seem like you're engaging in real discussion.
    - iagooar 10y ago
      What are you even talking about?
      - jasode 10y ago
        "interesting" != "boring" When the poster writes a response, one can either honestly try to understand his position, and then ask followup questions that are relevant to what he actually wrote. It seems like you didn't do that. Instead, you distorted his choice to read work email as "boring" and therefore, your followup questions (side projects? hobby?) had the tone of "lecturing" about his habit. In reading all of your replies to everyone, the gap in your worldview is that some non-managers like their work such that reading email outside of office hours is a natural response. However, that doesn't mean everyone should do it. For workers that feel strongly that reading email after-hours is wrong, telling others not to do so isn't going to work. If some people have different viewpoint about after-hours email, are you interested in thoughtful discussion about it? Or do you prefer to lecture people regardless of what they say?
dang 10y ago
The HN guidelines ask you to please not use uppercase for emphasis: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. It's the online equivalent of yelling, and closely associated with ranting, which tends to have a poorer signal/noise ratio.
- mSparks 10y ago
  please take your life somewhere else.
sebleon 10y ago
Consider that some people have meaningful jobs. If they're not working solely for the money, it's understandable that they'll do some work outside the office.
sebleon 10y ago
Consider that some people have meaningful jobs. If they're not working solely for the money, it's understandable that they'll do some work outside the office.
gdulli 10y ago
> To all fellow software engineers out there: STOP reading company emails after work ALREADY! I don't care what your boss has told you or what your co-workers do. Just don't do it. Don't tell people what to do. You don't understand another person's situation or values. I voluntarily pay attention to work matters on my own time in a reasonable and controlled way. I like my work and at times (not always) it's as fun and rewarding as whatever hobby I might spend time on instead. I've also been rewarded in various ways, both tangible and intangible, by demonstrating above-average "discretionary" attention to work. Totally within the bounds of keeping a sane balance between home and work life. And absent of pressure to do it in order to keep my job. I can understand why people who disagree feel strongly that no one else should put in extra time to get ahead either. Sometimes the rewards are zero sum. But there's a time and place for serious investment in a job or company, and other times it's only about a paycheck. Make sure you choose one or the other consciously, but don't pretend there's one right answer.
- ghaff 10y ago
  Ditto. I take vacations and I shut down after-hours when I don't have deadlines or timezone-dictated calls. But I do glance at my email from time to time in both situations if I have some downtime. And, if I can deal with some time sensitive matter quickly and with a modicum of effort, I honestly don't know why I wouldn't do so.

by iagooar 10y ago

mhurron 10y ago

> not management If management isn't also not reading mail/doing work after office hours than the whole thing falls apart.

iagooar 10y ago
Yes, but I don't care what managers do, they have other incentives and their time is (and should be) tracked differently.
- mhurron 10y ago
  Managers manage people. If they are working, they require other people working to do their job. Basically if they business isn't onboard with the idea of not working after hours, it won't happen and those that try to force it risk being replaced with people that 'fit the company culture.'
  - iagooar 10y ago
    I understand what you are saying, and you are right. It's just that I didn't want to focus on management, since it's a whole different dimension. But I agree with what you are saying.
  - tbrownaw 10y ago
    Managers manage people. If they are working, they require other people working to do their job. Not really. The thing about email is that the boss can send one out after hours, and it will still be there in the morning.
- paulddraper 10y ago
  > they have other incentives and their time is (and should be) tracked differently. Huh? The only difference between a manager and a non-manager is that the former manages others.

beezle 10y ago

I can understand that somebody who is paid hourly has no incentive to do anything work related once they leave the door (or clock if you prefer). For salaried employees, there are going to be times you need to work late, weekends, check email at home, whatever. It comes with the job. The problems occur when routine work is treated as high priority/time sensitive. But I'm not sold that legislating this is the best solution. Even the example given of somebody fixing bugs overnight w/ bad solutions - that is something management should have addressed. Unless a really critical system has crashed as a result, there is no good reason to fix it then and mgt. should make that clear.

iagooar 10y ago
> For salaried employees, there are going to be times you need to work late, weekends, check email at home, whatever. It comes with the job. Explain this to me. Nothing "comes with the job". Your job is your job and if you are working, say, 40 hours a week, it's more or less 8 hours a day. After 8 hours working, you go home and enjoy YOUR time. If companies want people to do company work while they are awake, they should basically double payrolls and pay for 16 hours, not just 8. Actually, not even in that case should it be OK. People are people and need to have their life and leisure time. If they don't have it, they start to feel overworked, stressed, depressed. In the end, it's not a net positive for the company either. THIS is precisely the attitude that leads some abusive bosses to believe that it's OK to expect people to sacrifice their free time. This should be a major offense, and should not be tolerated AT ALL in my opinion.
- dnautics 10y ago
  The consequence of enforcing your attitude by law is that small companies will never be able to expand to compete with big businesses. Say your website goes down at an inopportune time for a market in another time zone. Sorry, there's no one that can fix it because you can't have someone handling emergencies that 'come with the job' off hours on a staff of five. Now you've lost a major market.
  - ryanbrunner 10y ago

delroth 10y ago

> Is your private life SO boring, you need to do something that many of us do not even like doing during office hours? Yes. Or rather, what happens at work is so interesting that it usually beats refreshing reddit for the 5th time in 10min while in the train.

paulddraper 10y ago
Boring private life is the leading cause of internet trolls.
iagooar 10y ago
Why not start a little side-project? Try new things? Or maybe find a hobby that is going to fill those boring hours with joy?
- jasode 10y ago
  You write: "fill those _boring_ hours" ... in response to what the poster actually wrote: "work is _so interesting_" If you're rewriting what the poster wrote into words of opposite meaning, it doesn't seem like you're engaging in real discussion.
  - iagooar 10y ago
    What are you even talking about?
    - jasode 10y ago
      "interesting" != "boring" When the poster writes a response, one can either honestly try to understand his position, and then ask followup questions that are relevant to what he actually wrote. It seems like you didn't do that. Instead, you distorted his choice to read work email as "boring" and therefore, your followup questions (side projects? hobby?) had the tone of "lecturing" about his habit. In reading all of your replies to everyone, the gap in your worldview is that some non-managers like their work such that reading email outside of office hours is a natural response. However, that doesn't mean everyone should do it. For workers that feel strongly that reading email after-hours is wrong, telling others not to do so isn't going to work. If some people have different viewpoint about after-hours email, are you interested in thoughtful discussion about it? Or do you prefer to lecture people regardless of what they say?

dang 10y ago

The HN guidelines ask you to please not use uppercase for emphasis: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. It's the online equivalent of yelling, and closely associated with ranting, which tends to have a poorer signal/noise ratio.

mSparks 10y ago
please take your life somewhere else.

sebleon 10y ago

Consider that some people have meaningful jobs. If they're not working solely for the money, it's understandable that they'll do some work outside the office.

sebleon 10y ago

Consider that some people have meaningful jobs. If they're not working solely for the money, it's understandable that they'll do some work outside the office.

gdulli 10y ago

> To all fellow software engineers out there: STOP reading company emails after work ALREADY! I don't care what your boss has told you or what your co-workers do. Just don't do it. Don't tell people what to do. You don't understand another person's situation or values. I voluntarily pay attention to work matters on my own time in a reasonable and controlled way. I like my work and at times (not always) it's as fun and rewarding as whatever hobby I might spend time on instead. I've also been rewarded in various ways, both tangible and intangible, by demonstrating above-average "discretionary" attention to work. Totally within the bounds of keeping a sane balance between home and work life. And absent of pressure to do it in order to keep my job. I can understand why people who disagree feel strongly that no one else should put in extra time to get ahead either. Sometimes the rewards are zero sum. But there's a time and place for serious investment in a job or company, and other times it's only about a paycheck. Make sure you choose one or the other consciously, but don't pretend there's one right answer.

ghaff 10y ago
Ditto. I take vacations and I shut down after-hours when I don't have deadlines or timezone-dictated calls. But I do glance at my email from time to time in both situations if I have some downtime. And, if I can deal with some time sensitive matter quickly and with a modicum of effort, I honestly don't know why I wouldn't do so.