5 ms·

Out of hours? So you should check email at 03.00 just in case some insomniac customer needs something that you can't probably fix/send/prepare till next day. Th

Out of hours? So you should check email at 03.00 just in case some insomniac customer needs something that you can't probably fix/send/prepare till next day. That's called slavery even if it's volunteer.

minipci1321 10y ago
> 'insomniac customer' ... Many companies these days have branches in all parts of the world. 1) Out of hours for oneself could be perfectly office hours for the customer. 2) you might be the only person knowing this part of the product or tech, and all is required could be just a quick yes/no answer. I am not advocating for either side, but please -- the world is more complex than it seems.
- ghostDancer 10y ago
  Then my boss should contract some people that can service that customer during their work hours and the rest I'll answer the customer in my work hours, that's what i'm paid for, if my boss wants me 24 hour service he/she should pay me for it, otherwise it's voluntary slavery. They pay me to do my work during my hours not to be at his/her wishes.
  - minipci1321 10y ago
    > Then my boss should contract some people that can service that customer during their work hours... See my pt 2. > if my boss wants me 24 hour service he/she should pay me for it... I think your boss wants result from you, not any random metrics like 24 h/on the job. If you consider that you are underpaid for the result you have been delivering -- have you demanded a raise?
    - ghostDancer 10y ago
      Then he needs a brainwashed slave, that is happy being underpaid and being a nice servant to his master and not being valued. If i'm that good that he needs me that bad, then he should consider how bad would be me leaving.
    - EliRivers 10y ago
      I think your boss wants result from you, not any random metrics like 24 h/on the job In my experience, the evidence indicates this is not the case. They may say they want results, but results are really hard to measure, so they end up actually wanting hours and often various other easy-to-measure metrics.
    - ryanbrunner 10y ago
      Re: point 2 - having a sole member of the team be the only person who can answer an urgent question is a failing, and a fairly obvious and large one, of the company, for reasons beyond just working overtime. Think about it - were you in the managers shoes in this position, you're forcing someone who is the only holder of critical knowledge of your business to work extra without compensation, and against his will - don't you think there's a pretty big risk there? Regarding metrics, I think any manager who has even a tiny bit of empathy for his employees would realize that "time spent at work" (or more accurately - time spent not at work) is an incredibly critical metric for his employees' well being, and any discussion should look at what's important for the business as well as the employee.
    - tankenmate 10y ago
      And this leads to a race to the bottom where everyone loses in the long term (pathological emergent behaviour), even the shareholders. So you sometimes need legislation that provides a legal (and level playing field) floor below which you cannot descend, voluntarily or otherwise. EDIT: fixed grammar
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Indeed. I work regularly with French colleagues in projects. My time zone is one hour ahead of France, and our office hours are generally 8-17 while the French are 9-18 their time. So when we work together, if the French hours are completely fixed, then either I have to work a bit off hours, or we lose two hours of that common time (when it's needed, of course not every day). I might send a message soon after I start work, say 9am my time, and if the French colleague can check his messages at 8am his/her time, things are easier. I didn't require answering to insomniac customers at 3am, though I have actually received calls at 3am due to an emergency in Asia (which in my work may be an actual emergency with lives endangered). Indeed, the world is a bit more complex than some people think.
  - ghostDancer 10y ago
    How many people have works that can be called at 03:00 and lives are at risk? . I guess they pay you for being next to the phone if not they are abusing of you, your boss should have someone for answering at those times if that can be that dangerous..
    - RHSeeger 10y ago
      Does it need to be a life? Can it be "we're losing 5 million dollars an hour while this is down". I'm perfectly happy to wake up at 3am to a call if it will save my client 20 million dollars. On the other hand, they're perfectly comfortable with me telling them, "I'll be in a bit late today because last night was rough". Give and take.
      - ghostDancer 10y ago
        If you are so valuable good for you and your boss but i hope that they not only know but they pay you accordingly. that what i try to tell all the time if you need after hours you should show me love, but most of the times they want you to do it for free and not even a thank you and if you refuse they make look like the bad guy. Sorry it's my work not my life and is your business if you love it that much it's not my problem.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  > 2) you might be the only person knowing this part of the product or tech, and all is required could be just a quick yes/no answer. Then you can pay me for the answer. This doesn't make it impossible to provide timely customer service, just makes it so that you don't get to transfer the cost of doing so onto your employees.
  - minipci1321 10y ago
    > Then you can pay me for the answer. But what if the employer does pay you correctly for your results? So correctly that you are actually willing to do it?
    - ryanbrunner 10y ago
      That doesn't describe the vast majority of employees of a company. People are paid for time spent (with some degree of flexibility), whether you're salaried or hourly. If you don't think that's true, try fulfilling your duties through a marathon session on Monday one week and don't come in the rest of the week. Even employers who claim to be "results-driven" will view that as evidence of you being under-utilized and increase your workload.
ptaipale 10y ago
No. You shouldn't have to. But the government should not be able to tell you not to.
- ghostDancer 10y ago
  This is to protect the weaker part of the equation, the employee so that the employer can not force you to do it, anyway i always thought that configure the work email in your phone or home computer is apart from stupid a security and privacy risk.
  - minipci1321 10y ago
    > his is to protect the weaker part of the equation, the employee Presumably you are in hi-tech industry -- software, hardware etc? These employees have never been weak part of the equation (not even in France ;-), since I can remember, as far back as 1997. One could always slam the door, cross the street and get a better job. > i always thought that configure the work email in your phone or home computer is apart from stupid a security and privacy risk. Agree! But what if the employer have given you the mobile phone you use, and pays the subscription fee?
    - ghostDancer 10y ago
      If he gives me a phone , then i should have another one for my private use, never ever mix both of them, unless you are the owner then do whatever you want. Even if he pays the phone and fee , he should pay me for answering out of hours, i think we can all agree that is not the same to answer a phone call during my work hours at 09:00 or when i'm at home with my family sleeping at 03:00 , if i'm that needed and indispensable, show me the money! And not, i'm not on the hi-tech industry , but the worker is always the weaker link, look how many workers are fucked up the bosses and how many owners are fucked up by their employees.
    - eeZah7Ux 10y ago
      > One could always slam the door, cross the street and get a better job Or a worse one. Otherwise companies would be offering infinite benefits and salary and reject zero candidates. Look up salaries in France compared to norther Europe or US.

minipci1321 10y ago

> 'insomniac customer' ... Many companies these days have branches in all parts of the world. 1) Out of hours for oneself could be perfectly office hours for the customer. 2) you might be the only person knowing this part of the product or tech, and all is required could be just a quick yes/no answer. I am not advocating for either side, but please -- the world is more complex than it seems.

ghostDancer 10y ago
Then my boss should contract some people that can service that customer during their work hours and the rest I'll answer the customer in my work hours, that's what i'm paid for, if my boss wants me 24 hour service he/she should pay me for it, otherwise it's voluntary slavery. They pay me to do my work during my hours not to be at his/her wishes.
- minipci1321 10y ago
  > Then my boss should contract some people that can service that customer during their work hours... See my pt 2. > if my boss wants me 24 hour service he/she should pay me for it... I think your boss wants result from you, not any random metrics like 24 h/on the job. If you consider that you are underpaid for the result you have been delivering -- have you demanded a raise?
  - ghostDancer 10y ago
    Then he needs a brainwashed slave, that is happy being underpaid and being a nice servant to his master and not being valued. If i'm that good that he needs me that bad, then he should consider how bad would be me leaving.
  - EliRivers 10y ago
    I think your boss wants result from you, not any random metrics like 24 h/on the job In my experience, the evidence indicates this is not the case. They may say they want results, but results are really hard to measure, so they end up actually wanting hours and often various other easy-to-measure metrics.
  - ryanbrunner 10y ago
    Re: point 2 - having a sole member of the team be the only person who can answer an urgent question is a failing, and a fairly obvious and large one, of the company, for reasons beyond just working overtime. Think about it - were you in the managers shoes in this position, you're forcing someone who is the only holder of critical knowledge of your business to work extra without compensation, and against his will - don't you think there's a pretty big risk there? Regarding metrics, I think any manager who has even a tiny bit of empathy for his employees would realize that "time spent at work" (or more accurately - time spent not at work) is an incredibly critical metric for his employees' well being, and any discussion should look at what's important for the business as well as the employee.
  - tankenmate 10y ago
    And this leads to a race to the bottom where everyone loses in the long term (pathological emergent behaviour), even the shareholders. So you sometimes need legislation that provides a legal (and level playing field) floor below which you cannot descend, voluntarily or otherwise. EDIT: fixed grammar
ptaipale 10y ago
Indeed. I work regularly with French colleagues in projects. My time zone is one hour ahead of France, and our office hours are generally 8-17 while the French are 9-18 their time. So when we work together, if the French hours are completely fixed, then either I have to work a bit off hours, or we lose two hours of that common time (when it's needed, of course not every day). I might send a message soon after I start work, say 9am my time, and if the French colleague can check his messages at 8am his/her time, things are easier. I didn't require answering to insomniac customers at 3am, though I have actually received calls at 3am due to an emergency in Asia (which in my work may be an actual emergency with lives endangered). Indeed, the world is a bit more complex than some people think.
- ghostDancer 10y ago
  How many people have works that can be called at 03:00 and lives are at risk? . I guess they pay you for being next to the phone if not they are abusing of you, your boss should have someone for answering at those times if that can be that dangerous..
  - RHSeeger 10y ago
    Does it need to be a life? Can it be "we're losing 5 million dollars an hour while this is down". I'm perfectly happy to wake up at 3am to a call if it will save my client 20 million dollars. On the other hand, they're perfectly comfortable with me telling them, "I'll be in a bit late today because last night was rough". Give and take.
    - ghostDancer 10y ago
      If you are so valuable good for you and your boss but i hope that they not only know but they pay you accordingly. that what i try to tell all the time if you need after hours you should show me love, but most of the times they want you to do it for free and not even a thank you and if you refuse they make look like the bad guy. Sorry it's my work not my life and is your business if you love it that much it's not my problem.
AlexandrB 10y ago
> 2) you might be the only person knowing this part of the product or tech, and all is required could be just a quick yes/no answer. Then you can pay me for the answer. This doesn't make it impossible to provide timely customer service, just makes it so that you don't get to transfer the cost of doing so onto your employees.
- minipci1321 10y ago
  > Then you can pay me for the answer. But what if the employer does pay you correctly for your results? So correctly that you are actually willing to do it?
  - ryanbrunner 10y ago
    That doesn't describe the vast majority of employees of a company. People are paid for time spent (with some degree of flexibility), whether you're salaried or hourly. If you don't think that's true, try fulfilling your duties through a marathon session on Monday one week and don't come in the rest of the week. Even employers who claim to be "results-driven" will view that as evidence of you being under-utilized and increase your workload.

ptaipale 10y ago

No. You shouldn't have to. But the government should not be able to tell you not to.

ghostDancer 10y ago
This is to protect the weaker part of the equation, the employee so that the employer can not force you to do it, anyway i always thought that configure the work email in your phone or home computer is apart from stupid a security and privacy risk.
- minipci1321 10y ago
  > his is to protect the weaker part of the equation, the employee Presumably you are in hi-tech industry -- software, hardware etc? These employees have never been weak part of the equation (not even in France ;-), since I can remember, as far back as 1997. One could always slam the door, cross the street and get a better job. > i always thought that configure the work email in your phone or home computer is apart from stupid a security and privacy risk. Agree! But what if the employer have given you the mobile phone you use, and pays the subscription fee?
  - ghostDancer 10y ago
    If he gives me a phone , then i should have another one for my private use, never ever mix both of them, unless you are the owner then do whatever you want. Even if he pays the phone and fee , he should pay me for answering out of hours, i think we can all agree that is not the same to answer a phone call during my work hours at 09:00 or when i'm at home with my family sleeping at 03:00 , if i'm that needed and indispensable, show me the money! And not, i'm not on the hi-tech industry , but the worker is always the weaker link, look how many workers are fucked up the bosses and how many owners are fucked up by their employees.
  - eeZah7Ux 10y ago
    > One could always slam the door, cross the street and get a better job Or a worse one. Otherwise companies would be offering infinite benefits and salary and reject zero candidates. Look up salaries in France compared to norther Europe or US.