6 ms·

Apple developing Flash alternative named Gianduia

77 points by mikecane 17y ago

Mazer23 17y ago
So apple bought sproutCore right? How is this different? or is it a next step from sproutCore?
- BSeward 17y ago
  Apple has a few frameworks floating around, internally and out. See http://rentzsch.tumblr.com/post/286536824/apples-myriad-javascript-frameworks http://rentzsch.tumblr.com/post/286536824/apples-myriad-java...
  - grinich 17y ago
    I was playing with PastryKit for a while. http://michaelgrinich.com/pastrytweets http://michaelgrinich.com/pastrytweets You can grab the code here. http://github.com/grinich/pastrytweets http://github.com/grinich/pastrytweets
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- motvbi 17y ago
  Apple didn't buy SproutCore. Although they have contributed to the project. They use the framework for MobileMe and iWork.com.
- jeiting 17y ago
  They hired Charles Jolley, founder of Sprout it, which developed SproutCore. The framework itself is open source but is sheparded by jolly at apple, along wih his team.
asnyder 17y ago
This is definitely one of the fluffiest pieces I've ever read. There are numerous client-side frameworks as this piece mentions, but none of them really replace flash. Sure, the general development community is now finally coming to accept that there are clearly numerous use cases that flash was unnecessary for, but that doesn't replace flash. We've had the ability to have rich internet applications in our browsers since 2005. There are literally hundreds of client-side frameworks, but I guess since Apple is creating one, all of a sudden it warrants a mention. All of the apple applications that were mentioned could've easily been done in any of those. Why only mention Cappucinno, and Sproutcore? What do they have to with flash? It's just complete fluffery, very frustrating.
- derefr 17y ago
  So, what's this other thing we need to have to be able to replace flash? What else is flash currently doing for everyone that's so unique?
  - liuliu 17y ago
    vector animation engine? I don't know much about SVG though.
    - buster 17y ago
      http://raphaeljs.com/ http://raphaeljs.com/
    - est 17y ago
      and streamable. I remember in the 56k modem days the main Flash's feature is streamable Web multimedia.
  - Mazer23 17y ago
    My guess is that the flash tool-chain will be a lasting reason that it won't get instantly replaced by any of these new frameworks. There are a ton of developers and designers out there that know how to build flash and don't want to start learning new tools in unproven frameworks. That said, I think the more and more bloated nature of adobe's tools will become a huge weakness. Developers will be able to build tools for much more specific work-flows that feed directly into specific use cases. Sproutcore and this one seem to be aimed at the 'desktop feel' app development for html5, I'm guessing there will be other frameworks and tools for creating games, vector animations, silly interactive websites, etc. Each of tho uses should grow it's own tool/framework specific for the task
  - tomsaffell 17y ago
    Capturing webcam and microphone input.
    - derefr 17y ago
cjoh 17y ago
Man, I first read this as Apple developing flash alternative named "Giardia:" http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/Giardiasis/factsht_giardia.htm http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/Giardiasis/factsht_g...
- cjoh 17y ago
  The other end of this joke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianduja_(chocolate) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianduja_(chocolate)
- cubicle67 17y ago
  That's ok. I read it through somewhat bleary eyes as 'glandular' (as in fever)
petercooper 17y ago
Now it seems even more odd that Apple doesn't bother to include Lucida Grande on the iPhone or iPad, since that forms the cornerstone of Cocoa's interface. On the iPhone and iPad, they seem to use Helvetica instead (which is far less suited for small text).
- mattparcher 17y ago
  I'm not sure I understand. As much as I love Lucida Grande, Cocoa != Lucida Grande. Rather, Mac OS X : Lucida Grande :: iPhone OS : Helvetica.
  - petercooper 17y ago
    I see Helvetica on the iPhone platform as more of an aberration (and possibly merely the result of license bickering, not through serious consideration). It doesn't seem to make any sense to switch to it on the portable devices. This has been partially mocked here: http://blog.cocoia.com/2008/swiss-interface-syndrome/ http://blog.cocoia.com/2008/swiss-interface-syndrome/ Anyway, the screenshot of the Apple booking interface shows Lucida Grande in use. When viewed on the iPad/iPhone, it'll have to drop back to Helvetica instead of the intended font. Hopefully Apple will see sense, though, and add Lucida Grande to OS 4.0 or beyond since its absence makes little sense.
    - cpr 17y ago
      It's not an aberration, it's part of the Jobsian Bauhaus design sense. He got to force the main font choice on the phone, where he probably wasn't able to on Mac OS X.
      - petercooper 17y ago
        Maybe, but I can't buy it. They've stuck to the Lucida-esque Myriad Pro For their display advertising and Web graphics, for the most part and Jobs could have easily changed that stuff. That aside, can you imagine Helvetica replacing Lucida on OS X generally? It'd look hideous :-( (And I'm a big Helvetica fan - but it sucks for clarity at small point sizes.)
joubert 17y ago
If they were, I'm pretty confident it wouldn't be called that.
- hugh3 17y ago
  It is a pretty awful name. If you're going up against something with a name as catch as "Flash" you'll need something that doesn't sound like an intestinal parasite.
- alextgordon 17y ago
  Not that I disagree, but this is from the company that bought us the "Mighty Mouse".
  - joubert 17y ago
    and magic mouse (which I love)
callmeed 17y ago
If Adobe was smart they would snap up 280North or a similar company now—and offer it as part of their new html5/RIA initiative asap.
Kilimanjaro 17y ago
We don't need flash alternatives, we need support for SVG and canvas. SVG is a fine alternative to flash and it is supported by all major browsers. And browser APIs to fill the voids where flash also exceeded its animation-only competency, like sockets (we already have them) and device control (cams, mics, etc)
rmason 17y ago
So this is going to be write once run once? Or in other words run just on Apple hardware? Or run as speedily as iTunes or QuickTime does on the PC? Good luck with that!
sandofsky 17y ago
The real Flash "killer" is whatever commercial product they release to compete with the Flash artist tools. The only people who care about Flash are those with investments. Artists don't want to relearn tools, or worse; their worst fear is writing code as a replacement for an animation timeline. The businesses that employ these artists are happy with the existing pipeline, and any switch in platform looks like a huge risk. Every unbiased developer I talk to perceives a move away from Flash as a better Internet. It seems we don't move for the same reason we're using QWERTY rather than Dvorak keyboards. Regardless of their motivation, Apple pushing Flash toward obsolescence is a net win. The tipping point will be when someone, maybe even Adobe, releases a product identical to existing tools.

77 points by mikecane 17y ago

Mazer23 17y ago

So apple bought sproutCore right? How is this different? or is it a next step from sproutCore?

BSeward 17y ago
Apple has a few frameworks floating around, internally and out. See http://rentzsch.tumblr.com/post/286536824/apples-myriad-javascript-frameworks http://rentzsch.tumblr.com/post/286536824/apples-myriad-java...
- grinich 17y ago
  I was playing with PastryKit for a while. http://michaelgrinich.com/pastrytweets http://michaelgrinich.com/pastrytweets You can grab the code here. http://github.com/grinich/pastrytweets http://github.com/grinich/pastrytweets
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
motvbi 17y ago
Apple didn't buy SproutCore. Although they have contributed to the project. They use the framework for MobileMe and iWork.com.
jeiting 17y ago
They hired Charles Jolley, founder of Sprout it, which developed SproutCore. The framework itself is open source but is sheparded by jolly at apple, along wih his team.

asnyder 17y ago

This is definitely one of the fluffiest pieces I've ever read. There are numerous client-side frameworks as this piece mentions, but none of them really replace flash. Sure, the general development community is now finally coming to accept that there are clearly numerous use cases that flash was unnecessary for, but that doesn't replace flash. We've had the ability to have rich internet applications in our browsers since 2005. There are literally hundreds of client-side frameworks, but I guess since Apple is creating one, all of a sudden it warrants a mention. All of the apple applications that were mentioned could've easily been done in any of those. Why only mention Cappucinno, and Sproutcore? What do they have to with flash? It's just complete fluffery, very frustrating.

derefr 17y ago
So, what's this other thing we need to have to be able to replace flash? What else is flash currently doing for everyone that's so unique?
- liuliu 17y ago
  vector animation engine? I don't know much about SVG though.
  - buster 17y ago
    http://raphaeljs.com/ http://raphaeljs.com/
  - est 17y ago
    and streamable. I remember in the 56k modem days the main Flash's feature is streamable Web multimedia.
- Mazer23 17y ago
  My guess is that the flash tool-chain will be a lasting reason that it won't get instantly replaced by any of these new frameworks. There are a ton of developers and designers out there that know how to build flash and don't want to start learning new tools in unproven frameworks. That said, I think the more and more bloated nature of adobe's tools will become a huge weakness. Developers will be able to build tools for much more specific work-flows that feed directly into specific use cases. Sproutcore and this one seem to be aimed at the 'desktop feel' app development for html5, I'm guessing there will be other frameworks and tools for creating games, vector animations, silly interactive websites, etc. Each of tho uses should grow it's own tool/framework specific for the task
- tomsaffell 17y ago
  Capturing webcam and microphone input.
  - derefr 17y ago

cjoh 17y ago

Man, I first read this as Apple developing flash alternative named "Giardia:" http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/Giardiasis/factsht_giardia.htm http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/Giardiasis/factsht_g...

cjoh 17y ago
The other end of this joke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianduja_(chocolate) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianduja_(chocolate)
cubicle67 17y ago
That's ok. I read it through somewhat bleary eyes as 'glandular' (as in fever)

petercooper 17y ago

Now it seems even more odd that Apple doesn't bother to include Lucida Grande on the iPhone or iPad, since that forms the cornerstone of Cocoa's interface. On the iPhone and iPad, they seem to use Helvetica instead (which is far less suited for small text).

mattparcher 17y ago
I'm not sure I understand. As much as I love Lucida Grande, Cocoa != Lucida Grande. Rather, Mac OS X : Lucida Grande :: iPhone OS : Helvetica.
- petercooper 17y ago
  I see Helvetica on the iPhone platform as more of an aberration (and possibly merely the result of license bickering, not through serious consideration). It doesn't seem to make any sense to switch to it on the portable devices. This has been partially mocked here: http://blog.cocoia.com/2008/swiss-interface-syndrome/ http://blog.cocoia.com/2008/swiss-interface-syndrome/ Anyway, the screenshot of the Apple booking interface shows Lucida Grande in use. When viewed on the iPad/iPhone, it'll have to drop back to Helvetica instead of the intended font. Hopefully Apple will see sense, though, and add Lucida Grande to OS 4.0 or beyond since its absence makes little sense.
  - cpr 17y ago
    It's not an aberration, it's part of the Jobsian Bauhaus design sense. He got to force the main font choice on the phone, where he probably wasn't able to on Mac OS X.
    - petercooper 17y ago
      Maybe, but I can't buy it. They've stuck to the Lucida-esque Myriad Pro For their display advertising and Web graphics, for the most part and Jobs could have easily changed that stuff. That aside, can you imagine Helvetica replacing Lucida on OS X generally? It'd look hideous :-( (And I'm a big Helvetica fan - but it sucks for clarity at small point sizes.)

joubert 17y ago

If they were, I'm pretty confident it wouldn't be called that.

hugh3 17y ago
It is a pretty awful name. If you're going up against something with a name as catch as "Flash" you'll need something that doesn't sound like an intestinal parasite.
alextgordon 17y ago
Not that I disagree, but this is from the company that bought us the "Mighty Mouse".
- joubert 17y ago
  and magic mouse (which I love)

callmeed 17y ago

If Adobe was smart they would snap up 280North or a similar company now—and offer it as part of their new html5/RIA initiative asap.

Kilimanjaro 17y ago

We don't need flash alternatives, we need support for SVG and canvas. SVG is a fine alternative to flash and it is supported by all major browsers. And browser APIs to fill the voids where flash also exceeded its animation-only competency, like sockets (we already have them) and device control (cams, mics, etc)

rmason 17y ago

So this is going to be write once run once? Or in other words run just on Apple hardware? Or run as speedily as iTunes or QuickTime does on the PC? Good luck with that!

sandofsky 17y ago

The real Flash "killer" is whatever commercial product they release to compete with the Flash artist tools. The only people who care about Flash are those with investments. Artists don't want to relearn tools, or worse; their worst fear is writing code as a replacement for an animation timeline. The businesses that employ these artists are happy with the existing pipeline, and any switch in platform looks like a huge risk. Every unbiased developer I talk to perceives a move away from Flash as a better Internet. It seems we don't move for the same reason we're using QWERTY rather than Dvorak keyboards. Regardless of their motivation, Apple pushing Flash toward obsolescence is a net win. The tipping point will be when someone, maybe even Adobe, releases a product identical to existing tools.