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So, two things. I used to really respect Joel Spolsky. I've read all of his stuff and really liked it. But I can't help thinking that Fog Creek just isn't tha

So, two things. I used to really respect Joel Spolsky. I've read all of his stuff and really liked it. But I can't help thinking that Fog Creek just isn't that important of a company. As a decidedly "technical" person, I don't know a single person that uses any of their products. And I really do mean, zero. I know plenty of people that use git, IntelliJ, github, Stack Overflow, Twilio, AWS, Firebase, Google Cloud Platform, MongoDB, Pivotal Tracker, hell even JIRA, but nothing from Fog Creek. Ten years in the trenches, writing software, and never have I even once used, or even _met_ anyone that uses their stuff. Furthermore, the world has kinda moved on. We aren't shipping desktop software anymore and also, it's not enough to release to the web, either. These days people expect mobile apps, complex responsive design, and 1000 other things you didn't need to do 10 years ago. Software is increasingly becoming a field dominated by teams of specialists in all areas, and I just don't get the sense that Gomix was built with this new reality in mind. Second. I first heard of this guy (Anil) only about a month ago, when I came upon Joel's blog. I heard that he became CEO and yeah, I agree with a lot of what you've written -- a windbag with a political agenda who's great at self-promotion. Honest question though, does this make for a great CEO? We can certainly look to really cerebral guys like Bill Gates as a model for a tech CEO, but consider that Jeff Bezos apparently wasn't a developer. Also consider that more problems in tech are basically "solved" at this point, and as the industry matures, things like promotion and marketing are getting increasingly important. Satya Nadella (Microsoft) himself acknowledged this; I just read last week that Microsoft had some kind of senior meeting, and Satya was on a rant about how MS's culture is too engineering-driven for today's world. I don't have the temperament to be as much of a self-promoter as a guy like Anil, but I know plenty of companies that seem to be run by these guys, like Buffer, Groove, or anyone else specializing in "content marketing", and it seems to be working for them. So before you dismiss this guy, think of what it takes to make a good tech CEO. I fucking loathe self-promoters, really I do, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that's what it takes to make it in the sort of CRUDdy "tech" that isn't too research-heavy, which is most of software, these days (not autonomous vehicles, genetics, deep learning, thorium reactors, etc)

aassddffasdf 10y ago
You do realize that Stack Overflow and Twilio are Fog Creek products yea?
- oarfish 10y ago
  You mean Trello, not Twilio right?
  - favadi 10y ago
    maybe auto correct? :)
- jdross 10y ago
  Twilio (SMS and voice infra and APIs) is not related to Fog Creek. Trello (project management) and Stack Overflow were spun off from Fog Creek parent company, but are not run by Fog Creek.
  - aassddffasdf 10y ago
    Does it matter who runs them? Are the various subsidiaries of abc now not to ever be associated with 'Google'? That's naive and shortsighted.
- deleted 10y ago
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- deleted 10y ago
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EugeneOZ 10y ago
Even if somebody will agree with this opinion, 2 questions are not solved: 1) non-tech person shouldn't present product for programmers; 2) his "I'm CEO" is still too annoyingly repetitive.
ransom1538 10y ago
"I don't know a single person that uses any of their products." I would say, Fog Creek created one of the most important pieces of software in history and one of the most used. It is called "Stack Overflow". Sure. Quote how they are technically are not owned by FogCreek and Joel is just a CEO there. But that is lawyers, you know, lawyer-ing. "In 2008, Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky created Stack Overflow, a question-and-answer Web site for computer programming questions, which they described as an alternative to the programmer forum Experts-Exchange." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_Creek_Software#Stack_Overflow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_Creek_Software#Stack_Overf...
- stolsvik 10y ago
  "Retrofitting" SO to have been made by FogCreek is obviously to put the company in some better light. It was Jeff that came to Joel and had this idea, and it was not implemented within FogCreek.
twblalock 10y ago
> I used to really respect Joel Spolsky. I've read all of his stuff and really liked it. After reading the rest of your post, I'm not sure why. Joel Spolsky always seemed to me like he was all hat and no cattle -- he had rather strong opinions (and a high opinion of himself) for someone who ran a small company that never did anything of significance. He has always seemed rather fixated on some kind of superiority complex and separating good programmers from bad, but why should anyone believe that he is one of the good ones? What is he an authority on -- writing software nobody wants to use?
- B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
  He wrote the spec for Excel and Gates didn't scream at him, according to his own account: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev... (A good read, like most any one of his pieces - nothing wrong with his writing talent, obviously ...)
arctangent 10y ago
> Jeff Bezos apparently wasn't a developer Before launching Amazon, Bezos worked at "a financial-trading company on the cutting edge of computer technology" [1]. Wikipedia says he has a degree in "electrical engineering and computer science" [2]. It's reasonable to assume that Bezos has at least some development experience. [1] http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/biography/A-E/Bezos-Jeff-1964.html http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/biography/A-E/Bezos-Jeff... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos
no_wizard 10y ago
At the end of the day, as industries mature, you can, in aggregate, segregate things into a couple of platitudes. You have those products that will absolutely require marketing and promotion to move forward, because incremental progress on a product is not enough alone to move it forward (Think of your average ICE car, how different are they nowadays really? If you take the emotion out of the equation, they're really not too different). Then there will be those that are on the cutting edge frontier, where the action and innovation happens (Again, cars, where there is a different is something like Tesla or the chevy bolt, and that requires a LOT of pure research, development, engineering etc). If you don't like one, you should probably pursue the other. There isn't as much middle ground as things mature. Financial services is another great example of this. Cutting edge privately held funds is where all the quants go because it's interesting (with some exceptions, i'm talking in aggregate), where as your JP Morgans or your Bank of Americas tend to be all about marketing (even on the various other services they provide that you don't usually see TV commercials for, or web ads, or what have you).

aassddffasdf 10y ago

You do realize that Stack Overflow and Twilio are Fog Creek products yea?

oarfish 10y ago
You mean Trello, not Twilio right?
- favadi 10y ago
  maybe auto correct? :)
jdross 10y ago
Twilio (SMS and voice infra and APIs) is not related to Fog Creek. Trello (project management) and Stack Overflow were spun off from Fog Creek parent company, but are not run by Fog Creek.
- aassddffasdf 10y ago
  Does it matter who runs them? Are the various subsidiaries of abc now not to ever be associated with 'Google'? That's naive and shortsighted.
deleted 10y ago
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deleted 10y ago
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EugeneOZ 10y ago

Even if somebody will agree with this opinion, 2 questions are not solved: 1) non-tech person shouldn't present product for programmers; 2) his "I'm CEO" is still too annoyingly repetitive.

ransom1538 10y ago

"I don't know a single person that uses any of their products." I would say, Fog Creek created one of the most important pieces of software in history and one of the most used. It is called "Stack Overflow". Sure. Quote how they are technically are not owned by FogCreek and Joel is just a CEO there. But that is lawyers, you know, lawyer-ing. "In 2008, Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky created Stack Overflow, a question-and-answer Web site for computer programming questions, which they described as an alternative to the programmer forum Experts-Exchange." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_Creek_Software#Stack_Overflow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_Creek_Software#Stack_Overf...

stolsvik 10y ago
"Retrofitting" SO to have been made by FogCreek is obviously to put the company in some better light. It was Jeff that came to Joel and had this idea, and it was not implemented within FogCreek.

twblalock 10y ago

> I used to really respect Joel Spolsky. I've read all of his stuff and really liked it. After reading the rest of your post, I'm not sure why. Joel Spolsky always seemed to me like he was all hat and no cattle -- he had rather strong opinions (and a high opinion of himself) for someone who ran a small company that never did anything of significance. He has always seemed rather fixated on some kind of superiority complex and separating good programmers from bad, but why should anyone believe that he is one of the good ones? What is he an authority on -- writing software nobody wants to use?

B1FF_PSUVM 10y ago
He wrote the spec for Excel and Gates didn't scream at him, according to his own account: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-rev... (A good read, like most any one of his pieces - nothing wrong with his writing talent, obviously ...)

arctangent 10y ago

> Jeff Bezos apparently wasn't a developer Before launching Amazon, Bezos worked at "a financial-trading company on the cutting edge of computer technology" [1]. Wikipedia says he has a degree in "electrical engineering and computer science" [2]. It's reasonable to assume that Bezos has at least some development experience. [1] http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/biography/A-E/Bezos-Jeff-1964.html http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/biography/A-E/Bezos-Jeff... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Bezos

no_wizard 10y ago

At the end of the day, as industries mature, you can, in aggregate, segregate things into a couple of platitudes. You have those products that will absolutely require marketing and promotion to move forward, because incremental progress on a product is not enough alone to move it forward (Think of your average ICE car, how different are they nowadays really? If you take the emotion out of the equation, they're really not too different). Then there will be those that are on the cutting edge frontier, where the action and innovation happens (Again, cars, where there is a different is something like Tesla or the chevy bolt, and that requires a LOT of pure research, development, engineering etc). If you don't like one, you should probably pursue the other. There isn't as much middle ground as things mature. Financial services is another great example of this. Cutting edge privately held funds is where all the quants go because it's interesting (with some exceptions, i'm talking in aggregate), where as your JP Morgans or your Bank of Americas tend to be all about marketing (even on the various other services they provide that you don't usually see TV commercials for, or web ads, or what have you).