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Of course. Oriental cultures place immense value on the concept of "face", that is, appearing adept, productive, and excellent in all things [0]. In the U.S., s

Of course. Oriental cultures place immense value on the concept of "face", that is, appearing adept, productive, and excellent in all things [0]. In the U.S., sometimes we think "it'd be a good idea to try to save face here" just as a sidenote, really. In Japan and China, "face" is a recognized thing with its own formalities and children are taught to avoid losing face even at significant personal cost. In such cultures, you can see how one guy pulling a bunch of overtime quickly escalates into forcing everyone else to do so too. This escalation is assumed so readily that this is just considered a given of the culture, as we read about in this thread. [0] http://www.internationalman.com/articles/what-is-face-in-asian-culture-and-why-should-we-care http://www.internationalman.com/articles/what-is-face-in-asi...

jpatokal 10y ago
Likewise, Caucasian cultures place immense value on signaling status by bloviating about things you barely know about on the Internets. Somewhat less sarcastically, if you're going to attempt to apply "Oriental" concepts here, I'd go with wa here: there is a set order here and it's not the junior's role to disturb it.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Yeah, it is indeed true that I barely know anything about this. I thought about adding a disclaimer but it's trite to read those all over the place IMO. I just think it's an interesting cultural difference, from what little I know. ;) More than happy to accept correction and education from people who are better informed -- getting pushback on my thoughts is one of the big reasons I like to post on HN.
unscaled 10y ago
China has a concept of face (面子 mianzi), but this concept is quite absent in Japanese culture, despite both of them being 'Oriental', and what you described right now will be quite baffling to a Japanese mind. Sure, Japan has a strong concept of avoiding causing trouble to others, and of respecting your superior by waiting for them to leave, but that's not the main cause for overtime. Excessive worktime (長時間労働) is a very hot topic right now in Japan and I've seen several surveys popping out in TV shows. Here are some I found online: https://jinjibu.jp/article/detl/manage/226/3/ https://jinjibu.jp/article/detl/manage/226/3/ http://www.jil.go.jp/institute/research/documents/research020.pdf http://www.jil.go.jp/institute/research/documents/research02... All this surveys give more or less the same picture: the number one reason stated for working long hours is "Too much work to complete in normal working hours". "This type of job requires overtime by definition" and "I want to do my work properly" come second. Unlike Western tech companies, deadlines only come in the middle, and "Not wanting to leave earlier than my peers or my superior" comes dead last.
- cookiecaper 10y ago
  Thanks for the clarification. This doesn't apply in Japan at all? I admit I am mostly porting over what I know about the Chinese concept, and based on a few anecdotal conversations with people I know who've spent significant time in Japan, assuming this was a piece of cultural heritage they shared. Since this is an embarrassing mistake to make if no such concept exists, I appreciate the correction.

jpatokal 10y ago

Likewise, Caucasian cultures place immense value on signaling status by bloviating about things you barely know about on the Internets. Somewhat less sarcastically, if you're going to attempt to apply "Oriental" concepts here, I'd go with wa here: there is a set order here and it's not the junior's role to disturb it.

cookiecaper 10y ago
Yeah, it is indeed true that I barely know anything about this. I thought about adding a disclaimer but it's trite to read those all over the place IMO. I just think it's an interesting cultural difference, from what little I know. ;) More than happy to accept correction and education from people who are better informed -- getting pushback on my thoughts is one of the big reasons I like to post on HN.

unscaled 10y ago

China has a concept of face (面子 mianzi), but this concept is quite absent in Japanese culture, despite both of them being 'Oriental', and what you described right now will be quite baffling to a Japanese mind. Sure, Japan has a strong concept of avoiding causing trouble to others, and of respecting your superior by waiting for them to leave, but that's not the main cause for overtime. Excessive worktime (長時間労働) is a very hot topic right now in Japan and I've seen several surveys popping out in TV shows. Here are some I found online: https://jinjibu.jp/article/detl/manage/226/3/ https://jinjibu.jp/article/detl/manage/226/3/ http://www.jil.go.jp/institute/research/documents/research020.pdf http://www.jil.go.jp/institute/research/documents/research02... All this surveys give more or less the same picture: the number one reason stated for working long hours is "Too much work to complete in normal working hours". "This type of job requires overtime by definition" and "I want to do my work properly" come second. Unlike Western tech companies, deadlines only come in the middle, and "Not wanting to leave earlier than my peers or my superior" comes dead last.

cookiecaper 10y ago
Thanks for the clarification. This doesn't apply in Japan at all? I admit I am mostly porting over what I know about the Chinese concept, and based on a few anecdotal conversations with people I know who've spent significant time in Japan, assuming this was a piece of cultural heritage they shared. Since this is an embarrassing mistake to make if no such concept exists, I appreciate the correction.