7 ms·

You make an intresting point about the stats. Can you expand on the backing off part, though? And the question I would ask is, "what should have been done to p

by parhurs 10y ago

You make an intresting point about the stats. Can you expand on the backing off part, though? And the question I would ask is, "what should have been done to prevent this spiraling into a life of crime, and why wasn't it?"

alpsgolden 10y ago
Can you expand on the backing off part, though? Peter Moskos has written a lot on this. As part of his PhD, he spent two years as an actual cop in Baltimore. Now he is a professor of criminology in New York. IMO, he does a good job writing in a balanced and truthful perspective about crime. "I don't know what's going on everywhere (or even most-where), but I can tell you a bit about Baltimore. And I suspect it holds true in many cities. I looked calls for service, arrest numbers, and crimes. Most dramatic is the drop of arrests in Western District....Now there are good and not so good reasons for this drop in arrests. But leaving that why: it happened. Police were less involved, by choice and necessity, and violence skyrocketed. Just because correlation does prove causing, correlation certainly doesn't mean causation is impossible or even unlikely. I mean, what else changed in the Western except police and crime?...Cops stopped making discretionary arrests and being proactive in clearing corners and frisking subjects. Look, it's no surprise where shootings happens and who gets shot." http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/01/the-baltimore-6-effect.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/01/the-baltimore-6-effect.h... And then read this one about Chicago: http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/11/the-best-of-times-worst-of-times.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/11/the-best-of-times-worst-... And a few other posts http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/02/defining-ferguson-effect.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/02/defining-ferguson-effect... and http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/03/chicago-violence.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/03/chicago-violence.html And the question I would ask is, "what should have been done to prevent this spiraling into a life of crime, and why wasn't it?" My reading is that there is a total breakdown in discipline in many of these families and communities. The kids that end up being problems are not getting discipline at home, and they're not getting it from the school (see http://www.isegoria.net/2014/12/the-monster-factory/ http://www.isegoria.net/2014/12/the-monster-factory/ or http://www.anurbanteacherseducation.com/2011/02/tfa-alumnus-describes-barriers-to.html http://www.anurbanteacherseducation.com/2011/02/tfa-alumnus-... ) I also think that when you have open-air drug dealing, and gangs openly controlling the streets, then that turns senior gang members into role models, and it incentivizes young teenagers to join gangs for protection. Then as part of joining, they get involved in beefs and violence. That is my take from reading various ethnographies. The reason nothing is being done is because prevailing opinion does not agree with me. The emphasis over the past fifty years has been less discipline in schools. ( http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-killed-school-discipline-11749.html http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-killed-school-disciplin... ). There was a police crackdown in the 1990s, but it was more targeted at keeping violent people out of the nice neighborhoods, rather than completely eliminating gang violence in the ghetto neighborhoods. I think that is because the liberals see the police as suspect and problematic, and don't want to empower them, and because the conservatives don't really care about the ghetto as long as it doesn't effect them.
- rhizome 10y ago
  Without addressing your points, I might suggest expanding your sources of reference.
  - alpsgolden 10y ago
    I read a wide variety of sources. I linked to Moskos because he is one of the best, he himself has numerous citations, and thus there is no reason for me to duplicate the work he has already put in.
    - mlvljr 10y ago
      and this is not StackOverflow :)
    - sdenton4 10y ago
      If it's a subject you actually care about, beyond simply having your biases confirmed, reading more broadly will do you well.
      - alpsgolden 10y ago
        I read have read an enormous amount about this subject, from all angles and viewpoints. And I actually give a sh*t about getting the answer right, not just confirming any biases. And from reading and personal experience, I changed my mind on this subject, I used to be much more liberal in my beliefs about crime.
    - rhizome 10y ago
      thus there is no reason for me to duplicate the work he has already put in. You're vouching for him, but so far there's no reason to take your word for it. I'm sorry, but I don't know you from a social media marketer, so "feed the guy some clicks and figure it out for yourself" is not a compelling argument.
- pm90 10y ago
  This is a very good comment, and it seems pretty reasonable. I don't think police are the right agents to enforce societal change though. It seems like a lot of criminals, start off rather young charged with crimes like shoplifting etc, and that record haunts them forever, by shutting off a lot of opportunities forever. I don't know what the solution is, how to prevent so many American youth who would perhaps have been contributing members of society and culture. I found it rather surprising that such kinds of conditions exist in a developed country like the US; its usually something you find in less developed countries.

by parhurs 10y ago

alpsgolden 10y ago

Can you expand on the backing off part, though? Peter Moskos has written a lot on this. As part of his PhD, he spent two years as an actual cop in Baltimore. Now he is a professor of criminology in New York. IMO, he does a good job writing in a balanced and truthful perspective about crime. "I don't know what's going on everywhere (or even most-where), but I can tell you a bit about Baltimore. And I suspect it holds true in many cities. I looked calls for service, arrest numbers, and crimes. Most dramatic is the drop of arrests in Western District....Now there are good and not so good reasons for this drop in arrests. But leaving that why: it happened. Police were less involved, by choice and necessity, and violence skyrocketed. Just because correlation does prove causing, correlation certainly doesn't mean causation is impossible or even unlikely. I mean, what else changed in the Western except police and crime?...Cops stopped making discretionary arrests and being proactive in clearing corners and frisking subjects. Look, it's no surprise where shootings happens and who gets shot." http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/01/the-baltimore-6-effect.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/01/the-baltimore-6-effect.h... And then read this one about Chicago: http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/11/the-best-of-times-worst-of-times.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/11/the-best-of-times-worst-... And a few other posts http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/02/defining-ferguson-effect.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/02/defining-ferguson-effect... and http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/03/chicago-violence.html http://www.copinthehood.com/2016/03/chicago-violence.html And the question I would ask is, "what should have been done to prevent this spiraling into a life of crime, and why wasn't it?" My reading is that there is a total breakdown in discipline in many of these families and communities. The kids that end up being problems are not getting discipline at home, and they're not getting it from the school (see http://www.isegoria.net/2014/12/the-monster-factory/ http://www.isegoria.net/2014/12/the-monster-factory/ or http://www.anurbanteacherseducation.com/2011/02/tfa-alumnus-describes-barriers-to.html http://www.anurbanteacherseducation.com/2011/02/tfa-alumnus-... ) I also think that when you have open-air drug dealing, and gangs openly controlling the streets, then that turns senior gang members into role models, and it incentivizes young teenagers to join gangs for protection. Then as part of joining, they get involved in beefs and violence. That is my take from reading various ethnographies. The reason nothing is being done is because prevailing opinion does not agree with me. The emphasis over the past fifty years has been less discipline in schools. ( http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-killed-school-discipline-11749.html http://www.city-journal.org/html/who-killed-school-disciplin... ). There was a police crackdown in the 1990s, but it was more targeted at keeping violent people out of the nice neighborhoods, rather than completely eliminating gang violence in the ghetto neighborhoods. I think that is because the liberals see the police as suspect and problematic, and don't want to empower them, and because the conservatives don't really care about the ghetto as long as it doesn't effect them.

rhizome 10y ago
Without addressing your points, I might suggest expanding your sources of reference.
- alpsgolden 10y ago
  I read a wide variety of sources. I linked to Moskos because he is one of the best, he himself has numerous citations, and thus there is no reason for me to duplicate the work he has already put in.
  - mlvljr 10y ago
    and this is not StackOverflow :)
  - sdenton4 10y ago
    If it's a subject you actually care about, beyond simply having your biases confirmed, reading more broadly will do you well.
    - alpsgolden 10y ago
      I read have read an enormous amount about this subject, from all angles and viewpoints. And I actually give a sh*t about getting the answer right, not just confirming any biases. And from reading and personal experience, I changed my mind on this subject, I used to be much more liberal in my beliefs about crime.
  - rhizome 10y ago
    thus there is no reason for me to duplicate the work he has already put in. You're vouching for him, but so far there's no reason to take your word for it. I'm sorry, but I don't know you from a social media marketer, so "feed the guy some clicks and figure it out for yourself" is not a compelling argument.
pm90 10y ago
This is a very good comment, and it seems pretty reasonable. I don't think police are the right agents to enforce societal change though. It seems like a lot of criminals, start off rather young charged with crimes like shoplifting etc, and that record haunts them forever, by shutting off a lot of opportunities forever. I don't know what the solution is, how to prevent so many American youth who would perhaps have been contributing members of society and culture. I found it rather surprising that such kinds of conditions exist in a developed country like the US; its usually something you find in less developed countries.