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I agree with that statement, but it does pain me that this was his big takeaway. There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a God

I agree with that statement, but it does pain me that this was his big takeaway. There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a God. To see someone so quickly silenced/swayed by such simple rhetoric really illustrates how many important subjects are not getting nearly as much thought as they deserve. We will spend months stressing about a job or a start-up, which might affect our lives for the subsequent year or two or three, and no more than a few hours here and there really digging into what evidence exists to support an atheist or religious perspective. It's a cycle that sadly continues - 200 years ago everyone was Christian so people defaulted to it. Now, the trendy thing for "intellectuals" is atheism, and so many jump in without a thought (this continues to hold for both sides, as exemplified in the article). When deciding which direction to take with a start-up we do hours and hours of customer interviews, site visits, market research, brainstorming, reading, and even self-reflection. The same, and more, should be done for religion (e.g., check out a church, speak in a truly unbiased fashion with ardent believers and non-believers alike, grab 20 minutes of a pastors time who has probably dedicated his life to talking to people like us, etc). There is no topic that gets less thought relative to its importance.

ErrantX 16y ago
There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a God. Disagreed (and I can find you multiple believers/non-believers who will agree with me). In many ways it's irrelevant - your life choice to make whichever way you choose (with in depth research or knee jerk reaction). There are lots of other diverting things to spend your time on. It's a cycle that sadly continues - 200 years ago everyone was Christian so people defaulted to it. Now, the trendy thing for "intellectuals" is atheism, and so many jump in without a thought I feel that's a bit disingenuous - 200 years ago to hold a different religious belief was risking your life. grab 20 minutes of a pastors time who has probably dedicated his life to talking to people like us Oh. man no. Religious organisations are designed to self propagate. A pastor is essentially a salesman for the religion. Hear what he/she has to say but treat it with a large dose of salt. Ultimately religious belief is (or should be) an individual thing.
- VictorHo 16y ago
  I'm merely pointing to the fact that many extremely intelligent individuals have given atheism a lot of thought and come out on both sides of the fence. Of all major world issues, topics of study, etc., I cannot think of another with bigger potential implications. Your statement that "religious belief should be an individual thing" is exactly the mindset that I am trying to address. The existence of a God is fact, or not fact. It's either true for everyone, or false for everyone. Saying something is "individual" is healthy only to the point that it does not stop you from actually researching it, and many times the best learning is done in collaboration and reviewing the work of others.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Saying something is "individual" is healthy only to the point that it does not stop you from actually researching it That's the point I am disagreeing with though. The problem with God is that there is no way we can consider it as a Fact or Non-Fact. There is currently no objective reality of God's existence - so there is no element of fact or non-fact in it (interesting side note: if we all unequivocally believe in God how would that affect things - philosophical question for those so inclined :)). An individuals opinion of God is really Faith or Non-Faith (do you believe it may be a provable Fact or may not be a proveable Fact); and that is what I feel is the personal choice - even if someone just shrugs shoulders and says "yeh, there must be a god" we have to respect that. Period. (another side point: my problem with religion is, simply, that it tries to influence that decision, making it out to be the most important decision of your life...)
    - joubert 16y ago
      why should religious belief have a special place in the continuum of silly thoughts? (you say they should be respected) if you can make someone believe anything (e.g. there's this god with x,y,z attributes), you can make them do anything.
      - ErrantX 16y ago
        I make a distinction between religious belief and religion. The former I respect, ultimately, as a personal choice (that is not to say I wouldn't try to present an alternative if it was appropriate!). The latter I have little respect for :)
wdewind 16y ago
It pains you? really? Not to be simplistic, but if you don't actually believe in god in the first place, than the decision to believe in god or not is just about as relevant as the decision to believe in santa claus... re: pastors, barber called, time for a hair cut...
- nocman 16y ago
  "if you don't actually believe in god in the first place, than the decision to believe in god or not is just about as relevant as the decision to believe in santa claus" That's not really an a accurate statement. What a person believes doesn't determine what is relevant in this case. What does determine what is relevant is what the truth about God actually is. If God does exist, and if the Bible accurately describes His interactions with and expectations of man, then not believing He exists has ramifications that will affect you for all of eternity! If God truly does not exist, then you might be able to argue that it is irrelevant whether you believe in Him or not. But even in that case, it depends on how the belief in a false deity affects the believer. Does their belief in a false deity guide how they make important decisions in life? If so, then even belief in a false deity is totally relevant.
  - ericb 16y ago
    Pascal's wager only makes some semblance of sense when you consider one possible god with a simple "damned if you don't" heuristic. Throw in all the possible gods that have come before and after (Ra, Zeus, Freyja, Odin, The Moonies) and the wager starts to look pretty bad when you have to pick the "right one."
    - nocman 16y ago
      I don't see how you went from my post to Pascal's wager. Please explain.
  - nollidge 16y ago
    What if you've got the wrong god? Then you're just as screwed as the atheists.
mixmax 16y ago
That depends entirely on who you are, and I'd say your view is a bit prejudiced. I'm from one of the most atheist countries in the world, and to tell you the truth I don't think I've ever had a serious conversation with friends or family discussing whether God (or a god) exists. To us it would be like having a serious discussion about whether or not the tooth fairy existed. We just don't really care, and think the whole discussion would be kind of silly if it wasn't for all the wars fought in the name of various religions.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  This interested me actually. In the UK we have a general baseline of Christianity but I generally thought that the beliefs were mostly agnostic to atheist. But when I happened to mention I was an atheist to my parents (who show no other interest in religion) they were outwardly surprised.
  - detst 16y ago
    Sounds similar to a friends refusal to reject the existence of ghosts. They don't really have any interest in ghosts and no doubt don't believe in their existence but refuse to express their disbelief for fear of being proven wrong.
  - mixmax 16y ago
    That is interesting. I've never discussed religion with my parents or other family - just assumed them to be agnostic. Maybe I'm wrong...
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      Am I right in thinking (from your domain) you are Danish? I'd be interested in whether you're right or not in that assumption. Because It's common thought to me that northern European countries are generally more agnostic anyway (I suspect because the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire never really touched it)
      - 16y ago
enjo 16y ago
From the point of view of an atheist, there is very little to even think about. That's the problem, really. In matters of faith, faith (by its very nature) requires very little thought. You can search for 'evidence' of the existence of God, but there is none to consider really. That's why you end up with great scientific minds being reduced to things like Pascals Gambit. While Pascal did enter into an interesting piece of game theory, the substance requires very little thought (if your not going to believe in god, you better be right sort of thing).
- huherto 16y ago
  My father was an atheist and I was raised that way. But I became an agnostic. On what evidence? I cannot explain how wonderful is that I am alive and aware of my own existence right now.
jacquesm 16y ago
> Now, the trendy thing for "intellectuals" is atheism, and so many jump in without a thought (this continues to hold for both sides, as exemplified in the article). I don't think it is the 'trendy' thing at all, it is just that when you think this stuff over and you weigh the evidence someone that is intellectually oriented will probably come down on the atheist side of the line. Trends have nothing to do with it, at least atheists are no longer burned at the stake. But in plenty of countries it's probably safer to have the wrong religion than no religion at all.
char 16y ago
"When deciding which direction to take with a start-up we do hours and hours of customer interviews, site visits, market research, brainstorming, reading, and even self-reflection. The same, and more, should be done for religion." How, exactly? The former involves actual data points and hard evidence by which you can understand what is probabilistically true. In talking to a religious figure, you're just getting someone's opinion on what he believes. That method of 'research' cannot possibly help someone understand what is true in reality.
jarek 16y ago
> There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a god. There might be a god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
char 16y ago
"There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a god." Not really. The real life-impacting decision is choosing whether to live for yourself and by your own moral code, or blindly following someone else's.
nfnaaron 16y ago
"We will spend months stressing about a job or a start-up, which might affect our lives for the subsequent year or two or three, and no more than a few hours here and there really digging into what evidence exists to support an atheist or religious perspective." If the religious perspective if based on faith, how or why would one dig for evidence?
chrishaum 16y ago
Thank you for standing up for things of eternal importance. I wholeheartedly agree.

ErrantX 16y ago

There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a God. Disagreed (and I can find you multiple believers/non-believers who will agree with me). In many ways it's irrelevant - your life choice to make whichever way you choose (with in depth research or knee jerk reaction). There are lots of other diverting things to spend your time on. It's a cycle that sadly continues - 200 years ago everyone was Christian so people defaulted to it. Now, the trendy thing for "intellectuals" is atheism, and so many jump in without a thought I feel that's a bit disingenuous - 200 years ago to hold a different religious belief was risking your life. grab 20 minutes of a pastors time who has probably dedicated his life to talking to people like us Oh. man no. Religious organisations are designed to self propagate. A pastor is essentially a salesman for the religion. Hear what he/she has to say but treat it with a large dose of salt. Ultimately religious belief is (or should be) an individual thing.

VictorHo 16y ago
I'm merely pointing to the fact that many extremely intelligent individuals have given atheism a lot of thought and come out on both sides of the fence. Of all major world issues, topics of study, etc., I cannot think of another with bigger potential implications. Your statement that "religious belief should be an individual thing" is exactly the mindset that I am trying to address. The existence of a God is fact, or not fact. It's either true for everyone, or false for everyone. Saying something is "individual" is healthy only to the point that it does not stop you from actually researching it, and many times the best learning is done in collaboration and reviewing the work of others.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Saying something is "individual" is healthy only to the point that it does not stop you from actually researching it That's the point I am disagreeing with though. The problem with God is that there is no way we can consider it as a Fact or Non-Fact. There is currently no objective reality of God's existence - so there is no element of fact or non-fact in it (interesting side note: if we all unequivocally believe in God how would that affect things - philosophical question for those so inclined :)). An individuals opinion of God is really Faith or Non-Faith (do you believe it may be a provable Fact or may not be a proveable Fact); and that is what I feel is the personal choice - even if someone just shrugs shoulders and says "yeh, there must be a god" we have to respect that. Period. (another side point: my problem with religion is, simply, that it tries to influence that decision, making it out to be the most important decision of your life...)
  - joubert 16y ago
    why should religious belief have a special place in the continuum of silly thoughts? (you say they should be respected) if you can make someone believe anything (e.g. there's this god with x,y,z attributes), you can make them do anything.
    - ErrantX 16y ago
      I make a distinction between religious belief and religion. The former I respect, ultimately, as a personal choice (that is not to say I wouldn't try to present an alternative if it was appropriate!). The latter I have little respect for :)

wdewind 16y ago

It pains you? really? Not to be simplistic, but if you don't actually believe in god in the first place, than the decision to believe in god or not is just about as relevant as the decision to believe in santa claus... re: pastors, barber called, time for a hair cut...

nocman 16y ago
"if you don't actually believe in god in the first place, than the decision to believe in god or not is just about as relevant as the decision to believe in santa claus" That's not really an a accurate statement. What a person believes doesn't determine what is relevant in this case. What does determine what is relevant is what the truth about God actually is. If God does exist, and if the Bible accurately describes His interactions with and expectations of man, then not believing He exists has ramifications that will affect you for all of eternity! If God truly does not exist, then you might be able to argue that it is irrelevant whether you believe in Him or not. But even in that case, it depends on how the belief in a false deity affects the believer. Does their belief in a false deity guide how they make important decisions in life? If so, then even belief in a false deity is totally relevant.
- ericb 16y ago
  Pascal's wager only makes some semblance of sense when you consider one possible god with a simple "damned if you don't" heuristic. Throw in all the possible gods that have come before and after (Ra, Zeus, Freyja, Odin, The Moonies) and the wager starts to look pretty bad when you have to pick the "right one."
  - nocman 16y ago
    I don't see how you went from my post to Pascal's wager. Please explain.
- nollidge 16y ago
  What if you've got the wrong god? Then you're just as screwed as the atheists.

mixmax 16y ago

That depends entirely on who you are, and I'd say your view is a bit prejudiced. I'm from one of the most atheist countries in the world, and to tell you the truth I don't think I've ever had a serious conversation with friends or family discussing whether God (or a god) exists. To us it would be like having a serious discussion about whether or not the tooth fairy existed. We just don't really care, and think the whole discussion would be kind of silly if it wasn't for all the wars fought in the name of various religions.

ErrantX 16y ago
This interested me actually. In the UK we have a general baseline of Christianity but I generally thought that the beliefs were mostly agnostic to atheist. But when I happened to mention I was an atheist to my parents (who show no other interest in religion) they were outwardly surprised.
- detst 16y ago
  Sounds similar to a friends refusal to reject the existence of ghosts. They don't really have any interest in ghosts and no doubt don't believe in their existence but refuse to express their disbelief for fear of being proven wrong.
- mixmax 16y ago
  That is interesting. I've never discussed religion with my parents or other family - just assumed them to be agnostic. Maybe I'm wrong...
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Am I right in thinking (from your domain) you are Danish? I'd be interested in whether you're right or not in that assumption. Because It's common thought to me that northern European countries are generally more agnostic anyway (I suspect because the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire never really touched it)
    - 16y ago

enjo 16y ago

From the point of view of an atheist, there is very little to even think about. That's the problem, really. In matters of faith, faith (by its very nature) requires very little thought. You can search for 'evidence' of the existence of God, but there is none to consider really. That's why you end up with great scientific minds being reduced to things like Pascals Gambit. While Pascal did enter into an interesting piece of game theory, the substance requires very little thought (if your not going to believe in god, you better be right sort of thing).

huherto 16y ago
My father was an atheist and I was raised that way. But I became an agnostic. On what evidence? I cannot explain how wonderful is that I am alive and aware of my own existence right now.

jacquesm 16y ago

> Now, the trendy thing for "intellectuals" is atheism, and so many jump in without a thought (this continues to hold for both sides, as exemplified in the article). I don't think it is the 'trendy' thing at all, it is just that when you think this stuff over and you weigh the evidence someone that is intellectually oriented will probably come down on the atheist side of the line. Trends have nothing to do with it, at least atheists are no longer burned at the stake. But in plenty of countries it's probably safer to have the wrong religion than no religion at all.

char 16y ago

"When deciding which direction to take with a start-up we do hours and hours of customer interviews, site visits, market research, brainstorming, reading, and even self-reflection. The same, and more, should be done for religion." How, exactly? The former involves actual data points and hard evidence by which you can understand what is probabilistically true. In talking to a religious figure, you're just getting someone's opinion on what he believes. That method of 'research' cannot possibly help someone understand what is true in reality.

jarek 16y ago

> There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a god. There might be a god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.

char 16y ago

"There is no decision that is more life-impacting than belief/disbelief in a god." Not really. The real life-impacting decision is choosing whether to live for yourself and by your own moral code, or blindly following someone else's.

nfnaaron 16y ago

"We will spend months stressing about a job or a start-up, which might affect our lives for the subsequent year or two or three, and no more than a few hours here and there really digging into what evidence exists to support an atheist or religious perspective." If the religious perspective if based on faith, how or why would one dig for evidence?

chrishaum 16y ago

Thank you for standing up for things of eternal importance. I wholeheartedly agree.