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Good to know. Is it enforced rigorously within Amazon? Specifically the attention and effort aspect. Do Amazon employees really have to get written permission f

Good to know. Is it enforced rigorously within Amazon? Specifically the attention and effort aspect. Do Amazon employees really have to get written permission from Amazon to work on side projects that might make money?

Sir_Substance 10y ago
You should assume that it will be enforced. Signing a contract on the assumption that certain clauses might not be enforced is a mugs game. Bearing in mind that amazon has a reputation as a shitty employer, I personally would make desired revisions to the contract, hand it back to them and say "this is what I want, let's negotiate". If they insist on the boilerplate version of the contract, and cannot be persuaded to alter even small details to make you more comfortable, then you should nope the fuck out of there (unless you have no other financial option, in which case take it and immediately start searching for a bullying-free workplace. Don't forget to tell them on the way out why you chose to bail).
- user5994461 10y ago
  > You should assume that it will be enforced. Signing a contract on the assumption that certain clauses might not be enforced is a mugs game. I do that all the time. Where I come from, there are plenty of standard clauses put in every contracts, which are 100% guaranteed illegal and not enforceable. Usually, ignoring them is easier than negotiating the contract.
  - Sir_Substance 10y ago
    >Usually, ignoring them is easier than negotiating the contract. You're mistaken. If the other party to the contract doesn't believe you, they may enforce the clause anyway, and then you'll have to pay for a lawyer to go and get it unenforced. Particularly if the clause was related to something time sensitive (e.g. something to do with shares, or something that prevented you from launching a product at the right moment), the court will not reward you for the opportunity value lost. If the clause is not legal, you should address that /before signing/ and have it removed from the contract. Doing otherwise on the assumption that the clause is unenforceable is arrogant and puts way too much faith in your local judicial system. It probably won't bite you in the arse, but it's one of those "if you do shoot yourself in the foot, you're gonna blow your whole damn leg off, not just the foot" situations.
    - user5994461 10y ago
      Partially agree. For sure: Don't fuck with shares or anything important that might blow your leg off. I'm talking of minor things. Like the classic non compete "You can't work in <x> domain for 1 year after you leave <company>". It's illegal and invalid at the place I was when I signed that contract (safe advice: don't generalize). Every one knows it's not valid. If the company wants to enforce it, they also have to take lawyers and risk their reputations. Then it will go to trial, where the judge will pick up the exact same case for 10 years ago that defined 1) that clause is invalid 2) company loose the trial and can't appeal 3) exact figures for damages and payback.
SallySwanSmith 10y ago
Yes, it is.
andrewguenther 10y ago
Yes. I've gone through the process just to be safe. Took less than 24 hours to get approval.
Androider 10y ago
Amazon is well known for actually suing ex-employees under the non-compete: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazon-sues-employee-taking-google-cloud-job-new-test-non-compete-laws/ http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazon-sues-employee-taking-goo... You'll find many such cases online regarding Amazon.
- andrewguenther 10y ago
  Considering that GCP set up a Seattle office just to poach on AWS employees, I don't find this the least bit surprising.

Sir_Substance 10y ago

You should assume that it will be enforced. Signing a contract on the assumption that certain clauses might not be enforced is a mugs game. Bearing in mind that amazon has a reputation as a shitty employer, I personally would make desired revisions to the contract, hand it back to them and say "this is what I want, let's negotiate". If they insist on the boilerplate version of the contract, and cannot be persuaded to alter even small details to make you more comfortable, then you should nope the fuck out of there (unless you have no other financial option, in which case take it and immediately start searching for a bullying-free workplace. Don't forget to tell them on the way out why you chose to bail).

user5994461 10y ago
> You should assume that it will be enforced. Signing a contract on the assumption that certain clauses might not be enforced is a mugs game. I do that all the time. Where I come from, there are plenty of standard clauses put in every contracts, which are 100% guaranteed illegal and not enforceable. Usually, ignoring them is easier than negotiating the contract.
- Sir_Substance 10y ago
  >Usually, ignoring them is easier than negotiating the contract. You're mistaken. If the other party to the contract doesn't believe you, they may enforce the clause anyway, and then you'll have to pay for a lawyer to go and get it unenforced. Particularly if the clause was related to something time sensitive (e.g. something to do with shares, or something that prevented you from launching a product at the right moment), the court will not reward you for the opportunity value lost. If the clause is not legal, you should address that /before signing/ and have it removed from the contract. Doing otherwise on the assumption that the clause is unenforceable is arrogant and puts way too much faith in your local judicial system. It probably won't bite you in the arse, but it's one of those "if you do shoot yourself in the foot, you're gonna blow your whole damn leg off, not just the foot" situations.
  - user5994461 10y ago
    Partially agree. For sure: Don't fuck with shares or anything important that might blow your leg off. I'm talking of minor things. Like the classic non compete "You can't work in <x> domain for 1 year after you leave <company>". It's illegal and invalid at the place I was when I signed that contract (safe advice: don't generalize). Every one knows it's not valid. If the company wants to enforce it, they also have to take lawyers and risk their reputations. Then it will go to trial, where the judge will pick up the exact same case for 10 years ago that defined 1) that clause is invalid 2) company loose the trial and can't appeal 3) exact figures for damages and payback.

SallySwanSmith 10y ago

Yes, it is.

andrewguenther 10y ago

Yes. I've gone through the process just to be safe. Took less than 24 hours to get approval.

Androider 10y ago

Amazon is well known for actually suing ex-employees under the non-compete: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazon-sues-employee-taking-google-cloud-job-new-test-non-compete-laws/ http://www.geekwire.com/2014/amazon-sues-employee-taking-goo... You'll find many such cases online regarding Amazon.

andrewguenther 10y ago
Considering that GCP set up a Seattle office just to poach on AWS employees, I don't find this the least bit surprising.