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That would imply that the current view of god(s) is more advanced (in a provable way) that the old view of them. To an atheist, this is nitpicking.

hugh3 16y ago
It might be legitimate if you were arguing with a deist (holding merely the belief that there is some form of deity responsible for creating the universe) rather than a Christian (holding the belief that God created the universe then sent a bunch of prophets to the Jews then appeared as his own son as a carpenter in Judea for some reason then got himself crucified by the Romans so that everybody's sins would be forgiven). The former of these (which I do not personally hold) is a more sophisticated and plausible than the existence of Thor, while the latter is pretty much on exactly the same level.
Alex3917 16y ago
That's like saying that because we've already debunked alchemy and astrology, being asked to debunk evolution as well is just nitpicking. If you asked someone at the Harvard divinity school what the most compelling arguments in favor of religion were today, they'd probably talk about Thor to the same extent that your bio101 professor talked about star alignments-- not at all. Whereas oftentimes they're actually using the same methodology, techniques, and textbooks that you'd find in the neuroscience/physics/philosophy departments, and publishing in the same academic journals. C.f. http://csp.org/psilocybin/ http://csp.org/psilocybin/
- Nwallins 16y ago
  > That's like saying that because we've already debunked alchemy and astrology, being asked to debunk evolution as well is just nitpicking. Well, yes. Scientists around the world agree that every scientific topic should be debunked. The ones that are left -- the ones that survive an attempt at debunking -- should be taken as fact, presumably until they are debunked and replaced with something more valid. > If you asked someone at the Harvard divinity school what the most compelling arguments in favor of religion were today, they'd probably talk about Thor ... -- not at all Sure, because choosing what to believe in, without a scientific basis, is essentially fashion. And believe me -- Thor is _way_ out of fashion.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    "Scientists around the world agree that every scientific topic should be debunked. The ones that are left -- the ones that survive an attempt at debunking -- should be taken as fact, presumably until they are debunked and replaced with something more valid." This is exactly the same as what many modern religious thinkers would say, which was my original point-- that debunking old dogma doesn't do anything to disprove the 'cutting edge' of religious thought. edit: Whatever, if you read my archive you'll see I'm probably the most atheist atheist on HN, but at least I'm willing to be intellectually honest and give the other side a fair shake.
VictorHo 16y ago
Many major religions are monotheistic by definition. The entire premise is that only 1 true god exists. Saying we "agree on 519 of 520 and disagree on 1" is a non-statement. The first person's belief in that 1 by definition precludes his belief in the other 519.
- hugh3 16y ago
  I think many people may be missing the point. The point of the argument is to challenge people to question whether the existence of their god is any more plausible than any of the other thousands of deities whose existence has been postulated. It works well against Christians or anyone else whose god has specific and well-defined properties. It doesn't work against deists since their "god" is sufficiently poorly-defined to be more plausible than Thor.
  - lotharbot 16y ago
    > "It works well against Christians" No it doesn't. It amazes me how often I hear Christians say "this argument works well against atheists" and then make an utterly stupid argument that none of the atheists I know would take seriously. This strikes me as much the same -- it's an argument that atheists think should work well against Christians, but that most Christians will think is stupid and misses the point.
    - hugh3 16y ago
      Oddly enough I was brought up a churchgoing Christian, but was convinced by arguments of pretty much this same form that Christianity was almost certainly false.
    - pyre 16y ago
      It works well against the argument, "How can you not believe in God?" The belief that 'belief in God' is a given is equally stupid.
  - Alex3917 16y ago
    "It doesn't work against deists since their 'god' is sufficiently poorly-defined to be more plausible than Thor." Contemporary thinkers might argue that god is well-defined, but ineffable.

hugh3 16y ago

It might be legitimate if you were arguing with a deist (holding merely the belief that there is some form of deity responsible for creating the universe) rather than a Christian (holding the belief that God created the universe then sent a bunch of prophets to the Jews then appeared as his own son as a carpenter in Judea for some reason then got himself crucified by the Romans so that everybody's sins would be forgiven). The former of these (which I do not personally hold) is a more sophisticated and plausible than the existence of Thor, while the latter is pretty much on exactly the same level.

Alex3917 16y ago

That's like saying that because we've already debunked alchemy and astrology, being asked to debunk evolution as well is just nitpicking. If you asked someone at the Harvard divinity school what the most compelling arguments in favor of religion were today, they'd probably talk about Thor to the same extent that your bio101 professor talked about star alignments-- not at all. Whereas oftentimes they're actually using the same methodology, techniques, and textbooks that you'd find in the neuroscience/physics/philosophy departments, and publishing in the same academic journals. C.f. http://csp.org/psilocybin/ http://csp.org/psilocybin/

Nwallins 16y ago
> That's like saying that because we've already debunked alchemy and astrology, being asked to debunk evolution as well is just nitpicking. Well, yes. Scientists around the world agree that every scientific topic should be debunked. The ones that are left -- the ones that survive an attempt at debunking -- should be taken as fact, presumably until they are debunked and replaced with something more valid. > If you asked someone at the Harvard divinity school what the most compelling arguments in favor of religion were today, they'd probably talk about Thor ... -- not at all Sure, because choosing what to believe in, without a scientific basis, is essentially fashion. And believe me -- Thor is _way_ out of fashion.
- deleted 16y ago
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- Alex3917 16y ago
  "Scientists around the world agree that every scientific topic should be debunked. The ones that are left -- the ones that survive an attempt at debunking -- should be taken as fact, presumably until they are debunked and replaced with something more valid." This is exactly the same as what many modern religious thinkers would say, which was my original point-- that debunking old dogma doesn't do anything to disprove the 'cutting edge' of religious thought. edit: Whatever, if you read my archive you'll see I'm probably the most atheist atheist on HN, but at least I'm willing to be intellectually honest and give the other side a fair shake.

VictorHo 16y ago

Many major religions are monotheistic by definition. The entire premise is that only 1 true god exists. Saying we "agree on 519 of 520 and disagree on 1" is a non-statement. The first person's belief in that 1 by definition precludes his belief in the other 519.

hugh3 16y ago
I think many people may be missing the point. The point of the argument is to challenge people to question whether the existence of their god is any more plausible than any of the other thousands of deities whose existence has been postulated. It works well against Christians or anyone else whose god has specific and well-defined properties. It doesn't work against deists since their "god" is sufficiently poorly-defined to be more plausible than Thor.
- lotharbot 16y ago
  > "It works well against Christians" No it doesn't. It amazes me how often I hear Christians say "this argument works well against atheists" and then make an utterly stupid argument that none of the atheists I know would take seriously. This strikes me as much the same -- it's an argument that atheists think should work well against Christians, but that most Christians will think is stupid and misses the point.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    Oddly enough I was brought up a churchgoing Christian, but was convinced by arguments of pretty much this same form that Christianity was almost certainly false.
  - pyre 16y ago
    It works well against the argument, "How can you not believe in God?" The belief that 'belief in God' is a given is equally stupid.
- Alex3917 16y ago
  "It doesn't work against deists since their 'god' is sufficiently poorly-defined to be more plausible than Thor." Contemporary thinkers might argue that god is well-defined, but ineffable.