5 ms·

Someone who is white and living in Eastern Europe I find comments like these deeply offensive: > overwhelmingly male, overwhelming white and overwhelmingly eng

Someone who is white and living in Eastern Europe I find comments like these deeply offensive: > overwhelmingly male, overwhelming white and overwhelmingly engineers This is me, but why does every article picture me as someone who has power and decision maker. Do I have to feel bad that I am male, white and engineer? I have seen hunger, REAL povery, communism, I make less than your McDonalds worker in U.S now and my standard of living is low compared to developed world. Why do I have to always read something is wrong with me?

s_kilk 10y ago
It's just good old-fashioned prejudice. Because you have attributes X, Y, and Z, you must therefore be a bad person.
sho_hn 10y ago
I don't think your frustration is warranted in this context, and context matters. The statement (a quote used by the article) was making a claim as to the staff involved with the expansion of Unicode being too homogeneous. If true, this could realistically pose a problem. I have some first-hand experience with this: I'm male, white and an engineer as well, but I'm also an immigrant in an East Asian country. Doing so and acquiring local cultural competency involved learning many things that weren't readily available to be learned in my European country of origin. It's therefore very credible to me that to serve a global audience, Unicode would benefit from a diverse staff trained in diverse environments due the way skills and knowledge are distributed. In other words, no, there isn't anything wrong with being male, white and an engineer (and nothing in the text says so, btw), but there might be (or have been; the article describes a shake-up in the process thereafter) a problem with decision makers at Unicode overwhelmingly fitting those specs. I think you can easily make the argument for diverse representation in this use case. This would of course benefit from the viewpoint of someone more familiar with the makeup of the Unicode Consortium.
- angry-hacker 10y ago
  It is just that every third article I read here on HN tells me so. I guess it's not frustration over only this particular article. But if people talk about diversity and tolerance, they should remind themselves that not all white people have the same privilege as you do over there. Where I live(d) I wasn't (and still don't) have an opportunity to open a developer account to so I can submit my (free) app to the store. I wasn't able to publish my app. I had to travel and go through horror making a bank account in another country just so I could submit an app to app store. I haven't had any influence over other people or groups, neither did my grand grand grand parents. I'm sick and tired reading from half of the tech (!!!!) article that all white men have some magical privilege.
  - sho_hn 10y ago
    Yeah, I just think this isn't one of those, and we have to be specific, or we're just generically angry, and that's not super-fruitful. The thing is, your personal experience (people believing things about you just based on the color of your skin, their minds being made up; feeling like you're going into things with a disadvantage based on how you are seen; being powerless to argue your way out) is absolutely valid, but it's also how lots of other people feel (immigrants all over the world, displaced people, minorities in any country, etc. - often disadvantaged in business, hiring, dating, ...). I think white people in wealthy western countries currently really do tend to feel this sort of systemic prejudice the least in their lives, due to demographics and history, and often can't empathize with the problem well. I perhaps couldn't myself before I became an immigrant and ran into circles where I'm stereotyped negatively (super jarring experience, but valuable). Some of the outrage and prejudice you see - and it can be off the mark - is a reaction to that, and it's often specific to a situation you're outside of (e.g. race relations in the US of A), and from authors not considering any other situation for lack of knowledge or experience. The bottom line is that it's a whole bunch of breakdowns of empathy all around and in all directions, including towards you. But the cool thing is that this kinda equips you with empathy special powers so you can try to improve things by being an effective communicator about these things.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    In general, when folks talk of white privilege it's more nuanced than "all white folk are privileged". I recommend going through http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explainin... , which explains privilege from the POV of someone who felt that they didn't have any. It touches on intersectionality -- privilege depends on more than one thing, and you may have privilege due to one aspect of your life that gets negated due to others. This does mean that someone in your exact situation without that aspect might be worse off. This doesn't mean that you will be universally better off than folks who do not share that aspect. The concept of intersectionality is pretty well known and most of the folks talking of diversity seem to be aware of it. Partially the communications breakdown is caused by terminology; someone who understands this will interpret the term "privilege" to include the nuanced nature of intersectionality. Folks unaware of this will interpret it the straightforward way and feel slighted. Such terminology discrepancies are nothing new; an in-group usually will understand words differently from the outgroup.
mjg59 10y ago
You don't have to feel bad. But you should be aware that decisions made by groups that are overwhelmingly white male engineers are likely to be the best decisions for white male engineers rather than the population as a whole, and having more diversity in the decision making process increases the probability that better decisions will be made.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
Manishearth 10y ago
> Do I have to feel bad that I am male, white and engineer? No. > Why do I have to always read something is wrong with me? That's not what it was saying. There is something wrong with decision makers being homogeneous, this does not imply that the group the decision makers are from has something wrong with it. > why does every article picture me as someone who has power and decision maker Also not what it was saying. In many fields decision makers are overwhelmingly white/male, this does not imply the converse that most white men are decision makers (or have power, or are well off). ------------ The article recognizes that most folks in the unicode consortium are white men. That is a fact[1]. It further implies that this homogeneity is bad for Unicode, since a lack of perspective may lead to decisions that don't work out well for some languages. [1]: However, the UC does consult with corresponding groups in individual countries when working specifically with a language. It's debatable whether or not this is enough to bring in perspective (especially in relation to things like CJK unification)
anateus 10y ago
It's provincialism: the assumption that your audience is in the US or Western Europe. There is an implicit "Overwhelmingly American" in the beginning of that list. Understood in that context, it is not an unreasonable statement: in that world this describes a traditionally privileged group. In this particular article, however, it doesn't even matter that this group is powerful. The quote is meant to juxtapose the group of people deciding about emoji vs. the majority of the world. It's got a flaw in it, in that the majority of Emojis were decided by people overwhelming male and overwhelmingly Japanese :) But back to your core complaint: I think you're right that you shouldn't have to read something is wrong with you. I think you're collateral damage in what is an overall valuable attempt to get people that share those characteristics but also have more power and privilege than you to experience some discomfort. As I said initially, I think you're collateral damage because of people's shortsightedness even as their intentions are often (certainly not always) good. I was born in the USSR and well understand this angle. Everyone unfortunately has their blind spots.
Retra 10y ago
If you chose to read into it that way, then maybe there is something wrong with you. I mean, I'm a relatively wealthy white American male engineer with plenty of privilege (in this context and others), but it doesn't offend me to be described that way. Why should it? It's an actionable and useful perspective on culture. Being offended, however, is not.
to3m 10y ago
If the shoe fits, wear it. And if it doesn't... don't?

s_kilk 10y ago

It's just good old-fashioned prejudice. Because you have attributes X, Y, and Z, you must therefore be a bad person.

sho_hn 10y ago

I don't think your frustration is warranted in this context, and context matters. The statement (a quote used by the article) was making a claim as to the staff involved with the expansion of Unicode being too homogeneous. If true, this could realistically pose a problem. I have some first-hand experience with this: I'm male, white and an engineer as well, but I'm also an immigrant in an East Asian country. Doing so and acquiring local cultural competency involved learning many things that weren't readily available to be learned in my European country of origin. It's therefore very credible to me that to serve a global audience, Unicode would benefit from a diverse staff trained in diverse environments due the way skills and knowledge are distributed. In other words, no, there isn't anything wrong with being male, white and an engineer (and nothing in the text says so, btw), but there might be (or have been; the article describes a shake-up in the process thereafter) a problem with decision makers at Unicode overwhelmingly fitting those specs. I think you can easily make the argument for diverse representation in this use case. This would of course benefit from the viewpoint of someone more familiar with the makeup of the Unicode Consortium.

angry-hacker 10y ago
It is just that every third article I read here on HN tells me so. I guess it's not frustration over only this particular article. But if people talk about diversity and tolerance, they should remind themselves that not all white people have the same privilege as you do over there. Where I live(d) I wasn't (and still don't) have an opportunity to open a developer account to so I can submit my (free) app to the store. I wasn't able to publish my app. I had to travel and go through horror making a bank account in another country just so I could submit an app to app store. I haven't had any influence over other people or groups, neither did my grand grand grand parents. I'm sick and tired reading from half of the tech (!!!!) article that all white men have some magical privilege.
- sho_hn 10y ago
  Yeah, I just think this isn't one of those, and we have to be specific, or we're just generically angry, and that's not super-fruitful. The thing is, your personal experience (people believing things about you just based on the color of your skin, their minds being made up; feeling like you're going into things with a disadvantage based on how you are seen; being powerless to argue your way out) is absolutely valid, but it's also how lots of other people feel (immigrants all over the world, displaced people, minorities in any country, etc. - often disadvantaged in business, hiring, dating, ...). I think white people in wealthy western countries currently really do tend to feel this sort of systemic prejudice the least in their lives, due to demographics and history, and often can't empathize with the problem well. I perhaps couldn't myself before I became an immigrant and ran into circles where I'm stereotyped negatively (super jarring experience, but valuable). Some of the outrage and prejudice you see - and it can be off the mark - is a reaction to that, and it's often specific to a situation you're outside of (e.g. race relations in the US of A), and from authors not considering any other situation for lack of knowledge or experience. The bottom line is that it's a whole bunch of breakdowns of empathy all around and in all directions, including towards you. But the cool thing is that this kinda equips you with empathy special powers so you can try to improve things by being an effective communicator about these things.
- Manishearth 10y ago
  In general, when folks talk of white privilege it's more nuanced than "all white folk are privileged". I recommend going through http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explainin... , which explains privilege from the POV of someone who felt that they didn't have any. It touches on intersectionality -- privilege depends on more than one thing, and you may have privilege due to one aspect of your life that gets negated due to others. This does mean that someone in your exact situation without that aspect might be worse off. This doesn't mean that you will be universally better off than folks who do not share that aspect. The concept of intersectionality is pretty well known and most of the folks talking of diversity seem to be aware of it. Partially the communications breakdown is caused by terminology; someone who understands this will interpret the term "privilege" to include the nuanced nature of intersectionality. Folks unaware of this will interpret it the straightforward way and feel slighted. Such terminology discrepancies are nothing new; an in-group usually will understand words differently from the outgroup.

mjg59 10y ago

You don't have to feel bad. But you should be aware that decisions made by groups that are overwhelmingly white male engineers are likely to be the best decisions for white male engineers rather than the population as a whole, and having more diversity in the decision making process increases the probability that better decisions will be made.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

Manishearth 10y ago

> Do I have to feel bad that I am male, white and engineer? No. > Why do I have to always read something is wrong with me? That's not what it was saying. There is something wrong with decision makers being homogeneous, this does not imply that the group the decision makers are from has something wrong with it. > why does every article picture me as someone who has power and decision maker Also not what it was saying. In many fields decision makers are overwhelmingly white/male, this does not imply the converse that most white men are decision makers (or have power, or are well off). ------------ The article recognizes that most folks in the unicode consortium are white men. That is a fact[1]. It further implies that this homogeneity is bad for Unicode, since a lack of perspective may lead to decisions that don't work out well for some languages. [1]: However, the UC does consult with corresponding groups in individual countries when working specifically with a language. It's debatable whether or not this is enough to bring in perspective (especially in relation to things like CJK unification)

anateus 10y ago

It's provincialism: the assumption that your audience is in the US or Western Europe. There is an implicit "Overwhelmingly American" in the beginning of that list. Understood in that context, it is not an unreasonable statement: in that world this describes a traditionally privileged group. In this particular article, however, it doesn't even matter that this group is powerful. The quote is meant to juxtapose the group of people deciding about emoji vs. the majority of the world. It's got a flaw in it, in that the majority of Emojis were decided by people overwhelming male and overwhelmingly Japanese :) But back to your core complaint: I think you're right that you shouldn't have to read something is wrong with you. I think you're collateral damage in what is an overall valuable attempt to get people that share those characteristics but also have more power and privilege than you to experience some discomfort. As I said initially, I think you're collateral damage because of people's shortsightedness even as their intentions are often (certainly not always) good. I was born in the USSR and well understand this angle. Everyone unfortunately has their blind spots.

Retra 10y ago

If you chose to read into it that way, then maybe there is something wrong with you. I mean, I'm a relatively wealthy white American male engineer with plenty of privilege (in this context and others), but it doesn't offend me to be described that way. Why should it? It's an actionable and useful perspective on culture. Being offended, however, is not.

to3m 10y ago

If the shoe fits, wear it. And if it doesn't... don't?