5 ms·

That's sad, especially since most of the extra hours are busywork and peer pressure from what I've read. What happens in Japan if you put in a simple 40-hour w

That's sad, especially since most of the extra hours are busywork and peer pressure from what I've read. What happens in Japan if you put in a simple 40-hour week, do good work, and then leave at the end of the day? I also understand their government makes it very difficult to fire employees. And I can't imagine they'd reassign you to watch the paint dry if you're actually doing good work. Would you mainly miss out on promotions? Is it just a social thing, or is it economic? Since it's harder to fire people in Japan, there's a lot of risk to hiring a new employee. So maybe the culture helps weed out uncommitted people, which helps derisk hires? Or, to a certain extent, lets you get more productive hours out of them.

vezycash 10y ago
>Is it just a social thing The little I know about Japan is from Anime, books, articles and online comments. In Japan, leaving before the boss is distasteful. Also, going home early instead of socializing after work is frowned upon even by one's spouse. I've also read that there's no job hopping. Employee for life is still a thing there. And an ex-employer's comment is heavily weighted by prospective employers. Additionally, loyalty is highly valued, probably more than ability. This Wikipedia article is a good summary of Japanese work environment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_work_environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_work_environment
- throwaway2016a 10y ago
  > In Japan, leaving before the boss is distasteful My personal management policy is I get in before and leave after all my employees incase they need me and to show them that I am there for/with them (within reason - if someone is putting a really late night I may leave first). The idea of not leaving before the boss leaves is weird to me. I get higher pay and more stock options, why should I be leaving early when my team is working their butt's off? Edit: I realize this could be taken as a ploy from me to get the team to work more hours. But I also don't shame employees for leaving before me. It's not a contest. If they get their work done they shouldn't feel guilty leaving at 5:00.
  - jodrellblank 10y ago
    If they get their work done they shouldn't feel guilty leaving at 5:00. If they get their work done, should they feel guilty leaving at 3:00?
    - freehunter 10y ago
      My experience is, there's always more work to be done if you finish your tasks early.
      - prodmerc 10y ago
        Yeah, you can always do some of tomorrow's goals, and continue until you hit some more difficult problem, at which point your work in advance will let you spend more time working on that problem. People who don't like what they do won't do this, of course.
    - com2kid 10y ago
      When I was a manager? Nope. I had people who got in at 7, left at 3. No problem.
      - jodrellblank 10y ago
        Nice subversion. But I was poking at the relationship between duration, rather than offset. Should they feel guilty leaving early if they finished their work? Should they feel guilty leaving late if they haven't finished their work?
    - throwaway2016a 10y ago
      Serious answer... if they really have nothing else to work on then sure. But that's obviously rare. So more realistically... if the project was early I'd actually suggest to them that if they want to take some PTO time they can.
  - keithpeter 10y ago
    "If they get their work done they shouldn't feel guilty leaving at 5:00." Good for you. Do you spread this message widely? OA5[1] on a t-shirt or something? [1] Scott Adams Out at Five as an organising principle.
martin_henk 10y ago
I live and work in Japan since 2011. The most part of this time in larger companies. Afaik Dentsu takes or took huge pride in being an elitist salaryman operation. People joining them couldn't be totally unaware of this. Keyence is another place with a similar reputation. Although you'll find more places like this, it is not that common. I am pretty sure every country has companies like this. Further, Japanese people work long hours. Some will due to peer pressure. Some will cause they have nobody waiting at home. In some workplaces your colleagues are like friends. So, they socialize a lot during work hours. I think there is no single reason why Japanese people work longer hours than Europeans for example. I am convinced however, that on the average a Japanese employee takes a huge amount of pride from doing a good job. The point: How to judge if a job was executed well or not? I experience this not to be so easy mostly due to the Japanese style of communication, which leaves a lot of space for ambiguity. Maybe long work hours stem from this.

vezycash 10y ago

>Is it just a social thing The little I know about Japan is from Anime, books, articles and online comments. In Japan, leaving before the boss is distasteful. Also, going home early instead of socializing after work is frowned upon even by one's spouse. I've also read that there's no job hopping. Employee for life is still a thing there. And an ex-employer's comment is heavily weighted by prospective employers. Additionally, loyalty is highly valued, probably more than ability. This Wikipedia article is a good summary of Japanese work environment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_work_environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_work_environment

throwaway2016a 10y ago
> In Japan, leaving before the boss is distasteful My personal management policy is I get in before and leave after all my employees incase they need me and to show them that I am there for/with them (within reason - if someone is putting a really late night I may leave first). The idea of not leaving before the boss leaves is weird to me. I get higher pay and more stock options, why should I be leaving early when my team is working their butt's off? Edit: I realize this could be taken as a ploy from me to get the team to work more hours. But I also don't shame employees for leaving before me. It's not a contest. If they get their work done they shouldn't feel guilty leaving at 5:00.
- jodrellblank 10y ago
  If they get their work done they shouldn't feel guilty leaving at 5:00. If they get their work done, should they feel guilty leaving at 3:00?
  - freehunter 10y ago
    My experience is, there's always more work to be done if you finish your tasks early.
    - prodmerc 10y ago
      Yeah, you can always do some of tomorrow's goals, and continue until you hit some more difficult problem, at which point your work in advance will let you spend more time working on that problem. People who don't like what they do won't do this, of course.
  - com2kid 10y ago
    When I was a manager? Nope. I had people who got in at 7, left at 3. No problem.
    - jodrellblank 10y ago
      Nice subversion. But I was poking at the relationship between duration, rather than offset. Should they feel guilty leaving early if they finished their work? Should they feel guilty leaving late if they haven't finished their work?
  - throwaway2016a 10y ago
    Serious answer... if they really have nothing else to work on then sure. But that's obviously rare. So more realistically... if the project was early I'd actually suggest to them that if they want to take some PTO time they can.
- keithpeter 10y ago
  "If they get their work done they shouldn't feel guilty leaving at 5:00." Good for you. Do you spread this message widely? OA5[1] on a t-shirt or something? [1] Scott Adams Out at Five as an organising principle.

martin_henk 10y ago

I live and work in Japan since 2011. The most part of this time in larger companies. Afaik Dentsu takes or took huge pride in being an elitist salaryman operation. People joining them couldn't be totally unaware of this. Keyence is another place with a similar reputation. Although you'll find more places like this, it is not that common. I am pretty sure every country has companies like this. Further, Japanese people work long hours. Some will due to peer pressure. Some will cause they have nobody waiting at home. In some workplaces your colleagues are like friends. So, they socialize a lot during work hours. I think there is no single reason why Japanese people work longer hours than Europeans for example. I am convinced however, that on the average a Japanese employee takes a huge amount of pride from doing a good job. The point: How to judge if a job was executed well or not? I experience this not to be so easy mostly due to the Japanese style of communication, which leaves a lot of space for ambiguity. Maybe long work hours stem from this.