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I agree that the police should be involved when a crime is committed. The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social nor

I agree that the police should be involved when a crime is committed. The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social norms that have been preventing that. However, people seem to be realizing that, and are starting to work to change the norms. I am glad to hear that, and I think it is good he wrote about that since this problem is certainly found in many other groups. There is something else. Yes, the police should be called when a crime occurs, but there are lots of sexual behaviors that are not strictly crimes but are still morally wrong. The main way to prevent crimes from happening in the first place is to have clear community norms against the lesser offences. Wouldn't you agree? And the only way that ever happens is through a whole lot of discussion within the community. >Enough with the hearsay character assassinations. This time, the author even admits that he's conflicted and that his memory isn't completely reliable. He said he personally witnessed many abusive episodes himself. And he spoke to many others who had personally been abused. That is not hearsay, which is when someone tells you something they claim someone else said. Instead it is exactly the sort of discussions that have to happen when a community is making a major change in its norms.

guitarbill 10y ago
> The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social norms that have been preventing that. While I didn't read that out of the article clearly, I have heard it before, and it's definitely a danger of the self-reliance hacker ethos. This is a fair point, and one your other comment addresses nicely. > The main way to prevent crimes from happening in the first place is to have clear community norms against the lesser offences. Wouldn't you agree? Well, you can't protect everybody. If what he says it true, he let people know not to sleep with Applebaum, and they still decided to. I don't find this hard to believe, but such is life. (Male) murderers in prison get loads of (female) fan mail. So does the community need to police this, or let individuals decide for themselves with a reasonable amount of facts? I'm a pretty careful person and tend towards caution, but I get that not everybody is like me. But community "policing" isn't the right answer for free will IMO. This only holds as long as nobody was mislead I guess. > He said he personally witnessed many abusive episodes himself. [...] Instead it is exactly the sort of discussions that have to happen when a community is making a major change in its norms. Sure, but putting them in a Medium post is hardly reliable. Or at least, it's different and editorialised than if it were under oath or cross-examination. I'm not stupid enough to think the "truth" exists or that we could find it. But I am a bit weary of throwing it out there, into the public, outside of "the community". What is the general public to do with this information? Think Jacob Applebaum is a monster? Or ignore it? Is it factual? There's so many questions here that make it very hard to deal with the material properly, if that's even possible.

guitarbill 10y ago

> The problem, according to Isaacson is that the whole CCC community has a set of social norms that have been preventing that. While I didn't read that out of the article clearly, I have heard it before, and it's definitely a danger of the self-reliance hacker ethos. This is a fair point, and one your other comment addresses nicely. > The main way to prevent crimes from happening in the first place is to have clear community norms against the lesser offences. Wouldn't you agree? Well, you can't protect everybody. If what he says it true, he let people know not to sleep with Applebaum, and they still decided to. I don't find this hard to believe, but such is life. (Male) murderers in prison get loads of (female) fan mail. So does the community need to police this, or let individuals decide for themselves with a reasonable amount of facts? I'm a pretty careful person and tend towards caution, but I get that not everybody is like me. But community "policing" isn't the right answer for free will IMO. This only holds as long as nobody was mislead I guess. > He said he personally witnessed many abusive episodes himself. [...] Instead it is exactly the sort of discussions that have to happen when a community is making a major change in its norms. Sure, but putting them in a Medium post is hardly reliable. Or at least, it's different and editorialised than if it were under oath or cross-examination. I'm not stupid enough to think the "truth" exists or that we could find it. But I am a bit weary of throwing it out there, into the public, outside of "the community". What is the general public to do with this information? Think Jacob Applebaum is a monster? Or ignore it? Is it factual? There's so many questions here that make it very hard to deal with the material properly, if that's even possible.