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Because there's absolutely no evidence that it was rigged? Just because the DNC preferred the lifelong Democrat to the lifelong independent (who could have gues

Because there's absolutely no evidence that it was rigged? Just because the DNC preferred the lifelong Democrat to the lifelong independent (who could have guessed that?) doesn't mean they couldn't still have operated a fair primary.

travmatt 10y ago
But your facts and reasoning regretfully interrupts the circle jerk of the Bernie bros who are convinced their democratic socialist was on the brink of revolutionizing the American political system and finally delivering us to a Denmarkian utopia. Never mind the fact that Sanders was treated much more gently by the Clinton campaign than Obama was in '08, the only salient fact is that minority voters should have yielded their preference for a man who has spent 30+ years in Washington and yet has largely failed to build any power base.
- epmaybe 10y ago
  I'm confused by the last sentence. Are you suggesting that more minority voters went for Sanders over Clinton in the primaries? I had thought the exact opposite.
  - travmatt 10y ago
    It's sarcasm... the paranoid Sanders voters screaming that the election was rigged often 'forget' (find unacceptable/truly are clueless) that minority voters are the 800lb gorilla of the Democratic Party. In 08 they wanted Obama, and that's who it got. In 16 they wanted hrc and that's who it got. They throw around Clinton's pop vote win as if it showed our system is broken, all while genuinely believing she beat Sanders by cheating, conveniently ignoring the fact that she beat him by a larger margin.
    - epmaybe 10y ago
      I have no doubt that Hillary Clinton would have won the primary regardless of the DNC "meddling" in the primary, but I do feel that they would have a more unified DNC had there not been news of the DNC backing HRC before the primaries had even finished.
      - lern_too_spel 10y ago
        What "meddling" did the DNC do in the primary? How were they were backing her before the primaries finished?
        epmaybe 10y ago
        I was referring to the emails that showed clear favoritism for Clinton over Sanders. I put meddling in quotations because it wasn't necessarily actual instances, but rather the way the DNC treated one of their candidates that left a sour taste in many Sanders supporters mouths. That led to a lot of acquaintances of mine that supported Sanders to continue bashing Clinton after the primaries were already over, when it would have been really helpful for the Democratic party to have been unified throughout all of that.
        travmatt 10y ago
        I think that's the exact delusion I'm referring to. I think many Sanders supporters genuinely believe that since they have a clear preference for a candidate, that their preference is the only valid option and other people simply aren't allowed to make their own choice. Again, I refer to them as delusional because the '16 primary fight was about 1/3 as dirty as the '08 primaries, and somehow Sanders supporters feel being treated gently isn't good enough, what they expected was a clear majority of democratic voters to simply hand over the reins of the Democratic Party. They truly expected politics to revolutionize itself because of Sanders presidential run, and somehow tricks would not be a part of politics instantly and forevermore. I think my big takeaway regarding the primaries is that most 'progressive' Sanders voters simply wanted to hurt the American establishment, and if they couldn't do it with Bernie they wanted to cry, pick up their ball, and go home.
        belorn 10y ago
        > In a May 2016 email chain, the DNC chief financial officer (CFO) Brad Marshall told the DNC chief executive officer, Amy Dacy, that they should have someone from the media ask Sanders if he is an atheist prior to the West Virginia primary.[46][47] > high-ranking DNC officials discussed the possibility of making Sanders' religion a campaign issue in southern states Did they do so? If so, thats clear meddling. If not, its shows intent of meddling. > Paustenbach suggested that a past incident could be used to promote a "narrative for a story, which is that Bernie never had his act together, that his campaign was a mess." Again, suggestion to do acts of meddling but not clear if they went through with it. > Wasserman Schultz resigned as DNC chair after the leak, and was replaced by Donna Brazile and the Democratic National Committee issued an apology to Sanders.[52] Speaking on CNN, Sanders responded to the email leak: "...it is an outrage and sad that you would have people in important positions in the DNC trying to undermine my campaign. Regardless if the intended meddling happed or not, it is clear that even the party itself know that they were in the wrong.
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Natsu 10y ago
The emails show that Sanders was more or less a token opponent kept on a leash and kept in line. Remember also how they cut Sanders out of the DNC voting data. There were no big name Democrats running against Hillary. They also sucked all the money from the state level campaigns into Hillary's campaign, hurting the entire party when they lost after spending so much money trying to force Hillary through. https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/22224 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/22224 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/11056 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/11056 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/5477 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/5477 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/24440 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/24440 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10669#efmAO0APKAPMATG https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10669#efmAO0APK... https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5688 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5688 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/9999%20 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/9999%20 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5423 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5423 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7643 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7643 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/44131 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/44131
- lern_too_spel 10y ago
  What specifically did the DNC do to keep Sanders on a leash? My memory of the primaries is far different, with Sanders suing the DNC over access to NGP VAN (which the DNC had cut off until the Sanders campaign showed they had deleted their copies of Clinton's data), loudly complaining about the DNC following the existing rules at the Nevada Convention (http://www.politifact.com/nevada/statements/2016/may/18/jeff-weaver/allegations-fraud-and-misconduct-nevada-democratic/ http://www.politifact.com/nevada/statements/2016/may/18/jeff...), and generally loudly making unfounded allegations of rigging. Sanders was clearly unleashed, if not unhinged (though the cranky old progressive personality is what I like about him, in much the same way that libertarians are drawn to cranky old Ron Paul). > They also sucked all the money from the state level campaigns into Hillary's campaign. You're misreading the Politico article about the Hillary Victory Fund. In that article, the DNC said it was using the initial money to set up common infrastructure for the state parties to use. The money that was supposed to go to the state parties did eventually go to the state parties as you can see here: https://www.opensecrets.org/jfc/summary.php?id=C00586537 https://www.opensecrets.org/jfc/summary.php?id=C00586537. To refresh your memory, the first [FEC maximum contribution amount] donated by an individual to the Hillary Victory Fund would go to her primary campaign, the next [max amount] would go to her general election campaign, the next [max amount] would go to the DNC, and the rest would be distributed among the state parties. Also, I'm curious: whom would you consider a big name Democrat worthy of challenging Clinton not as a token opponent?
oh_sigh 10y ago
"Rigging", at least as I read it, doesn't imply cheating - it can just imply that the system is unbalanced or all candidates are not on a level playing field. For example, if I had to compete against someone in a drawing competition, and one of the judges was the parent of my competitor, and that judge has gone out of his way to train and groom his child for years for this competition, I may lament that the contest is rigged, even if the judge doesn't stuff the ballot box.
- grzm 10y ago
  Rigging implies fraud, deception, or dishonesty, not just unbalanced. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rigged https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rigged See sense 3 1. to manipulate or control usually by deceptive or dishonest means <rig an election> 2. to fix in advance for a desired result <rig the contest> Editted to add second part of sense 3.
  - oh_sigh 10y ago
    Why did you skip the second part of sense 3, which is "to fix in advance for a desired result"?
    - grzm 10y ago
      I don't see that it adds anything to contradict the idea that rigging is only something "unbalanced" and not connoting deceit. "Fix in advance" is an example of fraud. I have no issue with including it in my comment, and have updated it to do so. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise, though if you're implying that the example of extra, specialized training you provided above is an example of "fix in advance", I disagree. To "fix in advance" would mean that the outcome is predetermined, such as by bribes. This sense of fix is here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix 7b. to influence the actions, outcome, or effect of by improper or illegal methods <the race had been fixed> If you have some other meaning implied by your comment, please explain. I find I'm a terrible mind reader.
- lern_too_spel 10y ago

travmatt 10y ago

But your facts and reasoning regretfully interrupts the circle jerk of the Bernie bros who are convinced their democratic socialist was on the brink of revolutionizing the American political system and finally delivering us to a Denmarkian utopia. Never mind the fact that Sanders was treated much more gently by the Clinton campaign than Obama was in '08, the only salient fact is that minority voters should have yielded their preference for a man who has spent 30+ years in Washington and yet has largely failed to build any power base.

epmaybe 10y ago
I'm confused by the last sentence. Are you suggesting that more minority voters went for Sanders over Clinton in the primaries? I had thought the exact opposite.
- travmatt 10y ago
  It's sarcasm... the paranoid Sanders voters screaming that the election was rigged often 'forget' (find unacceptable/truly are clueless) that minority voters are the 800lb gorilla of the Democratic Party. In 08 they wanted Obama, and that's who it got. In 16 they wanted hrc and that's who it got. They throw around Clinton's pop vote win as if it showed our system is broken, all while genuinely believing she beat Sanders by cheating, conveniently ignoring the fact that she beat him by a larger margin.
  - epmaybe 10y ago
    I have no doubt that Hillary Clinton would have won the primary regardless of the DNC "meddling" in the primary, but I do feel that they would have a more unified DNC had there not been news of the DNC backing HRC before the primaries had even finished.
    - lern_too_spel 10y ago
      What "meddling" did the DNC do in the primary? How were they were backing her before the primaries finished?
      - epmaybe 10y ago
        I was referring to the emails that showed clear favoritism for Clinton over Sanders. I put meddling in quotations because it wasn't necessarily actual instances, but rather the way the DNC treated one of their candidates that left a sour taste in many Sanders supporters mouths. That led to a lot of acquaintances of mine that supported Sanders to continue bashing Clinton after the primaries were already over, when it would have been really helpful for the Democratic party to have been unified throughout all of that.
        travmatt 10y ago
        I think that's the exact delusion I'm referring to. I think many Sanders supporters genuinely believe that since they have a clear preference for a candidate, that their preference is the only valid option and other people simply aren't allowed to make their own choice. Again, I refer to them as delusional because the '16 primary fight was about 1/3 as dirty as the '08 primaries, and somehow Sanders supporters feel being treated gently isn't good enough, what they expected was a clear majority of democratic voters to simply hand over the reins of the Democratic Party. They truly expected politics to revolutionize itself because of Sanders presidential run, and somehow tricks would not be a part of politics instantly and forevermore. I think my big takeaway regarding the primaries is that most 'progressive' Sanders voters simply wanted to hurt the American establishment, and if they couldn't do it with Bernie they wanted to cry, pick up their ball, and go home.
      - belorn 10y ago
        > In a May 2016 email chain, the DNC chief financial officer (CFO) Brad Marshall told the DNC chief executive officer, Amy Dacy, that they should have someone from the media ask Sanders if he is an atheist prior to the West Virginia primary.[46][47] > high-ranking DNC officials discussed the possibility of making Sanders' religion a campaign issue in southern states Did they do so? If so, thats clear meddling. If not, its shows intent of meddling. > Paustenbach suggested that a past incident could be used to promote a "narrative for a story, which is that Bernie never had his act together, that his campaign was a mess." Again, suggestion to do acts of meddling but not clear if they went through with it. > Wasserman Schultz resigned as DNC chair after the leak, and was replaced by Donna Brazile and the Democratic National Committee issued an apology to Sanders.[52] Speaking on CNN, Sanders responded to the email leak: "...it is an outrage and sad that you would have people in important positions in the DNC trying to undermine my campaign. Regardless if the intended meddling happed or not, it is clear that even the party itself know that they were in the wrong.
- deleted 10y ago
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Natsu 10y ago

The emails show that Sanders was more or less a token opponent kept on a leash and kept in line. Remember also how they cut Sanders out of the DNC voting data. There were no big name Democrats running against Hillary. They also sucked all the money from the state level campaigns into Hillary's campaign, hurting the entire party when they lost after spending so much money trying to force Hillary through. https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/22224 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/22224 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/11056 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/11056 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/5477 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/5477 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/24440 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/24440 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10669#efmAO0APKAPMATG https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/10669#efmAO0APK... https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5688 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5688 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/9999%20 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/9999%20 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5423 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5423 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7643 https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7643 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/44131 https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/44131

lern_too_spel 10y ago
What specifically did the DNC do to keep Sanders on a leash? My memory of the primaries is far different, with Sanders suing the DNC over access to NGP VAN (which the DNC had cut off until the Sanders campaign showed they had deleted their copies of Clinton's data), loudly complaining about the DNC following the existing rules at the Nevada Convention (http://www.politifact.com/nevada/statements/2016/may/18/jeff-weaver/allegations-fraud-and-misconduct-nevada-democratic/ http://www.politifact.com/nevada/statements/2016/may/18/jeff...), and generally loudly making unfounded allegations of rigging. Sanders was clearly unleashed, if not unhinged (though the cranky old progressive personality is what I like about him, in much the same way that libertarians are drawn to cranky old Ron Paul). > They also sucked all the money from the state level campaigns into Hillary's campaign. You're misreading the Politico article about the Hillary Victory Fund. In that article, the DNC said it was using the initial money to set up common infrastructure for the state parties to use. The money that was supposed to go to the state parties did eventually go to the state parties as you can see here: https://www.opensecrets.org/jfc/summary.php?id=C00586537 https://www.opensecrets.org/jfc/summary.php?id=C00586537. To refresh your memory, the first [FEC maximum contribution amount] donated by an individual to the Hillary Victory Fund would go to her primary campaign, the next [max amount] would go to her general election campaign, the next [max amount] would go to the DNC, and the rest would be distributed among the state parties. Also, I'm curious: whom would you consider a big name Democrat worthy of challenging Clinton not as a token opponent?

oh_sigh 10y ago

"Rigging", at least as I read it, doesn't imply cheating - it can just imply that the system is unbalanced or all candidates are not on a level playing field. For example, if I had to compete against someone in a drawing competition, and one of the judges was the parent of my competitor, and that judge has gone out of his way to train and groom his child for years for this competition, I may lament that the contest is rigged, even if the judge doesn't stuff the ballot box.

grzm 10y ago
Rigging implies fraud, deception, or dishonesty, not just unbalanced. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rigged https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rigged See sense 3 1. to manipulate or control usually by deceptive or dishonest means <rig an election> 2. to fix in advance for a desired result <rig the contest> Editted to add second part of sense 3.
- oh_sigh 10y ago
  Why did you skip the second part of sense 3, which is "to fix in advance for a desired result"?
  - grzm 10y ago
    I don't see that it adds anything to contradict the idea that rigging is only something "unbalanced" and not connoting deceit. "Fix in advance" is an example of fraud. I have no issue with including it in my comment, and have updated it to do so. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise, though if you're implying that the example of extra, specialized training you provided above is an example of "fix in advance", I disagree. To "fix in advance" would mean that the outcome is predetermined, such as by bribes. This sense of fix is here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix 7b. to influence the actions, outcome, or effect of by improper or illegal methods <the race had been fixed> If you have some other meaning implied by your comment, please explain. I find I'm a terrible mind reader.
lern_too_spel 10y ago