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The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that t

by ajamesm 10y ago

The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that there is a racial basis for intelligence and human worth. The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.

wutbrodo 10y ago
> when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation. This seems like a far more productive avenue of criticism than "you're a nazi CHECKMATE". This is barely one degree of separation from political conversations like: "Government action? Nice try, STALIN"
eric_b 10y ago
On the basis of race and IQ I admit I am mostly ignorant of the arguments. A quick Wiki search reveals there are plenty of studies that have shown a correlation (whether the methodology was sound is under attack it seems). So while there may or may not be a correlation, it's certainly being debated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence That said, I don't think anyone is arguing we should resort to genocide, segregation, eugenics or any of those previous "solutions". I believe people are arguing that unless we can talk candidly about factors for the growing divide, we will never fix anything.
- gertef 10y ago
  The Black community has been waiting to talk candidly about slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, unfair incarceration, and more, for 200 years. When will you be ready to talk about something beyond "let's keep looking for reasons to blame Black people for their suffering"?
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  It's "debated" by white supremacists and everyone else. It's a completely bankrupt both scientifically and morally, had has been repeatedly discredited. You might as well be talking about the debate about the shape of the earth. The whole house of cards falls down with when you realize that race is a social construct, when no unifying scientific base at all. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People where "white" has been expanded and contracted to mean whatever was politically convenient at the time. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory observation of contemporary American culture. Barack Obama is "black" even though he's equally "white." Keanu Reeves is "white" even though he has an "asian" parent. Argentinians are "hispanic" despite being light skinned and descendent from Italians and Germans, why? Well they speak Spanish. Even the fragility of whiteness illustrate this fact. This whole "race realism" is the same discredited scientific racism that has persisted for hundreds of years, and is this is the second (and far more virulent) time this has come up in my adult life. The only twist on this very old idea is that now the "smart asian kid" stereotype throws a wrench in the works, when before you you dismiss asians as a bunch of treacherous lazy opium addicts. Now you have to put them in on a near peer to whites, but but discount them as "smart, but not imaginative. Good followers, not leaders." The whole thing obviously is there to simply reinforce existing stereotypes, and reduce humanity to entries in the D&D Monster Manual. Even in this forum, and this very thread we've got a guy pointing out this out completely with citations, and he's modded down to oblivion because of the actual racists in this forum (themgt, JPKab, wutbrodo, wallace_f, and no doubt others, including those hiding behind throwaway accounts) find it uncomfortable. So in conclusion, fuck the fascists.
  - checkmatelib 10y ago
    The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, for example, is not discredited and clearly links race to IQ. You're the one spinning narratives and calling names. There's nothing fascist about heritable traits in populations. The fact that people are afraid to talk about it without extreme reactions from the likes of you is the problem
    - ajamesm 10y ago
      I don't think anyone has an objection to honestly studying heritable traits, including those for intelligence, but rather we object to how quickly people cherry-pick individual studies to support ideologies, without paying any heed to the general scientific consensus or other studies. "This one study from 1976..." isn't a convincing case for establishing that link. If there were a good meta-analysis that tied together several studies and made a reasonable, statistically-grounded case that race is tied to IQ, while simultaneously explaining the contradicting studies, the anime-avatar Race Realist crowd would be absolutely tripping over themselves to post it. Where is it?
kmicklas 10y ago
Sadly these Nazis are the majority of readers here.
garandus 10y ago
No, many studies have worked hard to control for sociological effects and concluded that there are likely still correlations between race and IQ.
checkmatelib 10y ago
> The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation I think you're the one constructing a narrative. From what I'm aware of, there IS a correlation between race and IQ, and it is strong. And it is borne out by study after study. Stronger than the effects of environment and education. Even in the famous Minnesota transracial twin study where adopted black children are raised by wealthy white parents, " the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  Says the guy with the trolltastic throwaway account.
  - checkmatelib 10y ago
    That's a great argument you have.
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      I don't debate fascists, because they are good faith actors. If you were, you wouldn't be hiding coward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc

by ajamesm 10y ago

wutbrodo 10y ago

> when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation. This seems like a far more productive avenue of criticism than "you're a nazi CHECKMATE". This is barely one degree of separation from political conversations like: "Government action? Nice try, STALIN"

eric_b 10y ago

On the basis of race and IQ I admit I am mostly ignorant of the arguments. A quick Wiki search reveals there are plenty of studies that have shown a correlation (whether the methodology was sound is under attack it seems). So while there may or may not be a correlation, it's certainly being debated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence That said, I don't think anyone is arguing we should resort to genocide, segregation, eugenics or any of those previous "solutions". I believe people are arguing that unless we can talk candidly about factors for the growing divide, we will never fix anything.

gertef 10y ago
The Black community has been waiting to talk candidly about slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, unfair incarceration, and more, for 200 years. When will you be ready to talk about something beyond "let's keep looking for reasons to blame Black people for their suffering"?
jonathankoren 10y ago
It's "debated" by white supremacists and everyone else. It's a completely bankrupt both scientifically and morally, had has been repeatedly discredited. You might as well be talking about the debate about the shape of the earth. The whole house of cards falls down with when you realize that race is a social construct, when no unifying scientific base at all. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People where "white" has been expanded and contracted to mean whatever was politically convenient at the time. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory observation of contemporary American culture. Barack Obama is "black" even though he's equally "white." Keanu Reeves is "white" even though he has an "asian" parent. Argentinians are "hispanic" despite being light skinned and descendent from Italians and Germans, why? Well they speak Spanish. Even the fragility of whiteness illustrate this fact. This whole "race realism" is the same discredited scientific racism that has persisted for hundreds of years, and is this is the second (and far more virulent) time this has come up in my adult life. The only twist on this very old idea is that now the "smart asian kid" stereotype throws a wrench in the works, when before you you dismiss asians as a bunch of treacherous lazy opium addicts. Now you have to put them in on a near peer to whites, but but discount them as "smart, but not imaginative. Good followers, not leaders." The whole thing obviously is there to simply reinforce existing stereotypes, and reduce humanity to entries in the D&D Monster Manual. Even in this forum, and this very thread we've got a guy pointing out this out completely with citations, and he's modded down to oblivion because of the actual racists in this forum (themgt, JPKab, wutbrodo, wallace_f, and no doubt others, including those hiding behind throwaway accounts) find it uncomfortable. So in conclusion, fuck the fascists.
- checkmatelib 10y ago
  The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, for example, is not discredited and clearly links race to IQ. You're the one spinning narratives and calling names. There's nothing fascist about heritable traits in populations. The fact that people are afraid to talk about it without extreme reactions from the likes of you is the problem
  - ajamesm 10y ago
    I don't think anyone has an objection to honestly studying heritable traits, including those for intelligence, but rather we object to how quickly people cherry-pick individual studies to support ideologies, without paying any heed to the general scientific consensus or other studies. "This one study from 1976..." isn't a convincing case for establishing that link. If there were a good meta-analysis that tied together several studies and made a reasonable, statistically-grounded case that race is tied to IQ, while simultaneously explaining the contradicting studies, the anime-avatar Race Realist crowd would be absolutely tripping over themselves to post it. Where is it?

kmicklas 10y ago

Sadly these Nazis are the majority of readers here.

garandus 10y ago

No, many studies have worked hard to control for sociological effects and concluded that there are likely still correlations between race and IQ.

checkmatelib 10y ago

> The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation I think you're the one constructing a narrative. From what I'm aware of, there IS a correlation between race and IQ, and it is strong. And it is borne out by study after study. Stronger than the effects of environment and education. Even in the famous Minnesota transracial twin study where adopted black children are raised by wealthy white parents, " the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...

jonathankoren 10y ago
Says the guy with the trolltastic throwaway account.
- checkmatelib 10y ago
  That's a great argument you have.
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    I don't debate fascists, because they are good faith actors. If you were, you wouldn't be hiding coward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc