6 ms·

I'm not sure if you realize it - but your comment is the problem, not the original poster. Sometimes facts don't fit a political narrative. Comments like your

by eric_b 10y ago

I'm not sure if you realize it - but your comment is the problem, not the original poster. Sometimes facts don't fit a political narrative. Comments like yours are what have polarized the nation. Your knee-jerk reaction to anything that disagrees with your position is to name-call and shame. Not very good form.

ajamesm 10y ago
The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that there is a racial basis for intelligence and human worth. The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.
- wutbrodo 10y ago
  > when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation. This seems like a far more productive avenue of criticism than "you're a nazi CHECKMATE". This is barely one degree of separation from political conversations like: "Government action? Nice try, STALIN"
- eric_b 10y ago
  On the basis of race and IQ I admit I am mostly ignorant of the arguments. A quick Wiki search reveals there are plenty of studies that have shown a correlation (whether the methodology was sound is under attack it seems). So while there may or may not be a correlation, it's certainly being debated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence That said, I don't think anyone is arguing we should resort to genocide, segregation, eugenics or any of those previous "solutions". I believe people are arguing that unless we can talk candidly about factors for the growing divide, we will never fix anything.
  - gertef 10y ago
    The Black community has been waiting to talk candidly about slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, unfair incarceration, and more, for 200 years. When will you be ready to talk about something beyond "let's keep looking for reasons to blame Black people for their suffering"?
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    It's "debated" by white supremacists and everyone else. It's a completely bankrupt both scientifically and morally, had has been repeatedly discredited. You might as well be talking about the debate about the shape of the earth. The whole house of cards falls down with when you realize that race is a social construct, when no unifying scientific base at all. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People where "white" has been expanded and contracted to mean whatever was politically convenient at the time. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory observation of contemporary American culture. Barack Obama is "black" even though he's equally "white." Keanu Reeves is "white" even though he has an "asian" parent. Argentinians are "hispanic" despite being light skinned and descendent from Italians and Germans, why? Well they speak Spanish. Even the fragility of whiteness illustrate this fact. This whole "race realism" is the same discredited scientific racism that has persisted for hundreds of years, and is this is the second (and far more virulent) time this has come up in my adult life. The only twist on this very old idea is that now the "smart asian kid" stereotype throws a wrench in the works, when before you you dismiss asians as a bunch of treacherous lazy opium addicts. Now you have to put them in on a near peer to whites, but but discount them as "smart, but not imaginative. Good followers, not leaders." The whole thing obviously is there to simply reinforce existing stereotypes, and reduce humanity to entries in the D&D Monster Manual. Even in this forum, and this very thread we've got a guy pointing out this out completely with citations, and he's modded down to oblivion because of the actual racists in this forum (themgt, JPKab, wutbrodo, wallace_f, and no doubt others, including those hiding behind throwaway accounts) find it uncomfortable. So in conclusion, fuck the fascists.
    - checkmatelib 10y ago
      The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, for example, is not discredited and clearly links race to IQ. You're the one spinning narratives and calling names. There's nothing fascist about heritable traits in populations. The fact that people are afraid to talk about it without extreme reactions from the likes of you is the problem
      - ajamesm 10y ago
- kmicklas 10y ago
  Sadly these Nazis are the majority of readers here.
- garandus 10y ago
  No, many studies have worked hard to control for sociological effects and concluded that there are likely still correlations between race and IQ.
- checkmatelib 10y ago
  > The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation I think you're the one constructing a narrative. From what I'm aware of, there IS a correlation between race and IQ, and it is strong. And it is borne out by study after study. Stronger than the effects of environment and education. Even in the famous Minnesota transracial twin study where adopted black children are raised by wealthy white parents, " the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...
  - jonathankoren 10y ago
    Says the guy with the trolltastic throwaway account.
    - checkmatelib 10y ago
      That's a great argument you have.
      - jonathankoren 10y ago
        I don't debate fascists, because they are good faith actors. If you were, you wouldn't be hiding coward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc
jhedwards 10y ago
I kind of disagree in this case. As a general rule I think ideas should be debated objectively and with facts, but when someone so clearly promotes the idea that there are human races that are genetically distinct and map onto traits like intelligence and success I just think of the legacy that this line of thinking has given us: death, torture, and poverty throughout human history on a scale that's impossible to comprehend. Slavery and the holocaust were both predicated on the simple idea that one kind of human was superior so I don't feel comfortable sitting around sipping tea and debating that.
- ajamesm 10y ago
  And you can find any number of analyses that all conclude, "yup, the link is completely spurious". The subject isn't debatable in polite company because it has been refuted so comprehensively that the only reason to still stick to it is an unwavering dedication to white nationalist ideology. On this topic, there is no good faith.
  - garandus 10y ago
    Please stop saying this in various comments here. It isn't true. Someone linked you to the relevant Wikipedia article, which references a lot of good sources you should become familiar with.
  - smhost 10y ago
    The fallacy propagated by racists is: genetics = race, therefore "genetic differences account for intelligence" implies "racial differences account for intelligence." Which is obviously not true, but you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's actually an open secret among psychologists that genetics is moderately linked to intelligence and other things like workplace success, though no one that I know will admit even to entertaining the idea, because that would mean career suicide and death threats. But it's not a white supremacist thing. In fact, it can even be seen as the opposite. Race doesn't matter at all as long as you possess those genes for intelligence.
- alpsgolden 10y ago

by eric_b 10y ago

ajamesm 10y ago

The problem is so-called "race realists" boiling complex sociological issues down by way of lazy and fallacious thinking, and then not-so-subtly implying that there is a racial basis for intelligence and human worth. The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation.

wutbrodo 10y ago
> when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation. This seems like a far more productive avenue of criticism than "you're a nazi CHECKMATE". This is barely one degree of separation from political conversations like: "Government action? Nice try, STALIN"
eric_b 10y ago
On the basis of race and IQ I admit I am mostly ignorant of the arguments. A quick Wiki search reveals there are plenty of studies that have shown a correlation (whether the methodology was sound is under attack it seems). So while there may or may not be a correlation, it's certainly being debated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence That said, I don't think anyone is arguing we should resort to genocide, segregation, eugenics or any of those previous "solutions". I believe people are arguing that unless we can talk candidly about factors for the growing divide, we will never fix anything.
- gertef 10y ago
  The Black community has been waiting to talk candidly about slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, unfair incarceration, and more, for 200 years. When will you be ready to talk about something beyond "let's keep looking for reasons to blame Black people for their suffering"?
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  It's "debated" by white supremacists and everyone else. It's a completely bankrupt both scientifically and morally, had has been repeatedly discredited. You might as well be talking about the debate about the shape of the earth. The whole house of cards falls down with when you realize that race is a social construct, when no unifying scientific base at all. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_History_of_White_People where "white" has been expanded and contracted to mean whatever was politically convenient at the time. This is obvious to anyone with even a cursory observation of contemporary American culture. Barack Obama is "black" even though he's equally "white." Keanu Reeves is "white" even though he has an "asian" parent. Argentinians are "hispanic" despite being light skinned and descendent from Italians and Germans, why? Well they speak Spanish. Even the fragility of whiteness illustrate this fact. This whole "race realism" is the same discredited scientific racism that has persisted for hundreds of years, and is this is the second (and far more virulent) time this has come up in my adult life. The only twist on this very old idea is that now the "smart asian kid" stereotype throws a wrench in the works, when before you you dismiss asians as a bunch of treacherous lazy opium addicts. Now you have to put them in on a near peer to whites, but but discount them as "smart, but not imaginative. Good followers, not leaders." The whole thing obviously is there to simply reinforce existing stereotypes, and reduce humanity to entries in the D&D Monster Manual. Even in this forum, and this very thread we've got a guy pointing out this out completely with citations, and he's modded down to oblivion because of the actual racists in this forum (themgt, JPKab, wutbrodo, wallace_f, and no doubt others, including those hiding behind throwaway accounts) find it uncomfortable. So in conclusion, fuck the fascists.
  - checkmatelib 10y ago
    The Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, for example, is not discredited and clearly links race to IQ. You're the one spinning narratives and calling names. There's nothing fascist about heritable traits in populations. The fact that people are afraid to talk about it without extreme reactions from the likes of you is the problem
    - ajamesm 10y ago
kmicklas 10y ago
Sadly these Nazis are the majority of readers here.
garandus 10y ago
No, many studies have worked hard to control for sociological effects and concluded that there are likely still correlations between race and IQ.
checkmatelib 10y ago
> The snarky "checkmated by FACTS, you emotional liberal!" narrative doesn't work when STUDY after STUDY fails to find any meaningful correlation I think you're the one constructing a narrative. From what I'm aware of, there IS a correlation between race and IQ, and it is strong. And it is borne out by study after study. Stronger than the effects of environment and education. Even in the famous Minnesota transracial twin study where adopted black children are raised by wealthy white parents, " the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...
- jonathankoren 10y ago
  Says the guy with the trolltastic throwaway account.
  - checkmatelib 10y ago
    That's a great argument you have.
    - jonathankoren 10y ago
      I don't debate fascists, because they are good faith actors. If you were, you wouldn't be hiding coward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tlwf9A1ivc

jhedwards 10y ago

I kind of disagree in this case. As a general rule I think ideas should be debated objectively and with facts, but when someone so clearly promotes the idea that there are human races that are genetically distinct and map onto traits like intelligence and success I just think of the legacy that this line of thinking has given us: death, torture, and poverty throughout human history on a scale that's impossible to comprehend. Slavery and the holocaust were both predicated on the simple idea that one kind of human was superior so I don't feel comfortable sitting around sipping tea and debating that.

ajamesm 10y ago
And you can find any number of analyses that all conclude, "yup, the link is completely spurious". The subject isn't debatable in polite company because it has been refuted so comprehensively that the only reason to still stick to it is an unwavering dedication to white nationalist ideology. On this topic, there is no good faith.
- garandus 10y ago
  Please stop saying this in various comments here. It isn't true. Someone linked you to the relevant Wikipedia article, which references a lot of good sources you should become familiar with.
- smhost 10y ago
  The fallacy propagated by racists is: genetics = race, therefore "genetic differences account for intelligence" implies "racial differences account for intelligence." Which is obviously not true, but you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's actually an open secret among psychologists that genetics is moderately linked to intelligence and other things like workplace success, though no one that I know will admit even to entertaining the idea, because that would mean career suicide and death threats. But it's not a white supremacist thing. In fact, it can even be seen as the opposite. Race doesn't matter at all as long as you possess those genes for intelligence.
alpsgolden 10y ago