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I really love these IndieHackers interviews but surprisingly find them somewhat demotivating. Even the more successful interviewees make less revenue per month

I really love these IndieHackers interviews but surprisingly find them somewhat demotivating. Even the more successful interviewees make less revenue per month than I can make through straight consulting. And they're the success stories—most people (including myself) make far less per month from their products. How do people keep motivated to work on side projects when consulting is so much more profitable?

merpnderp 10y ago
If you can make more than $17k/month from straight consulting, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter please.
- morgante 10y ago
  I don't have a newsletter, but if you send an email to me@morgante.net I'll let you know if I ever start one.
- ffumarola 10y ago
  At a modest $200/hr, that's 85 hours. It definitely can be hard to line up that much work month after month, but I've had a few months in a row where I achieved that level of consulting revenue. The key is to keep raising your rates.
  - zump 10y ago
    I'm a new grad, but since when do consultants get to charge > ~double the hourly rate of what wages would be? Did I miss the memo?
    - kleinsch 10y ago
      Happens all the time. As a consultant you're responsible for self employment tax (7.5%), benefits, vacation, sick leave, etc. You also have no job security, so you need to make enough that you can cover gaps in between gigs that ended. You price it into your hourly rate accordingly. So yes, your hourly rate is significantly higher than a comparable salaried employee. No, you're not actually ending up with double the money at the end of the day.
      - malz 10y ago
        Fair, but what's in it for the company? Why pay me a huge hourly rate when they could hire an employee for less? There are various answers to this: specialized knowledge, limited engagement, and so on. But it's important to establish your value as a consultant along these lines.
        MichaelBurge 10y ago
        Employees are extremely undesirable to have. They're highly regulated, and mean that you have to hire HR departments to mitigate the constant risk of being sued. And there are many many regulations that kick in after you have X number of employees, so many companies stay at X-1 employees until they're ready to make the jump to 2X employees. With a consultant, you cut them a check, they do the work, and then they go away. No hassle or risk. It's the difference between logging onto a website like Fiverr and putting in your credit card, and paying a lawyer $500/hour to help you set up an employee health care plan.
      - zump 10y ago
        How do I establish a background to be a profitable consultant? - Work at X company for Y years? - GitHub? - Networking?
        snowwrestler 10y ago
        You need to be able to find clients without spending a fortune on marketing. Networking is good for this; there are a ton of blog posts about how to build up a professional network. Low-cost "thought leader" content marketing might work too, like blogging, an email newsletter, social media presence. You also need to understand what problems your potential clients are facing. This takes experience, which can come from working as an employee in that industry. You need to convince your potential clients that you will reliably solve their problem--not only the technical skills, but the ability to apply them on time, on budget, and do what you say you can do. Case studies and client referrals are key here. Working at X company for Y years is a good way to learn all about the problems that companies like X face, and to develop some stories about how you have solved those problems professionally. It can also be a good way to build a network. GitHub is useful if it demonstrates skill and perseverance. If it is filled with half-done hobby projects, it will be useless or even a detriment. It is less important than a good track record on actual paying projects. Finally, to be a profitable consultant, you need to know how to run the business--to estimate your expenses and set rates that are competitive but still make enough money. EDIT: the blog at http://www.kalzumeus.com http://www.kalzumeus.com is chock full of detailed content on how to start your own software business, including consulting.
    - morgante 10y ago
      In addition to the factors kleinsch mentioned, consultants aren't necessarily charging double the hourly rate of employees. Most of the consultants charging >$150/hr are people who could readily get a job in Big Tech paying >$250k/yr.
    - patio11 10y ago
      Two memos from the archives: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8706043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8706043 (see in particular the linked comment) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387 (why a consultancy charges an $8k per month programmer out at $6k per week)
- beambot 10y ago
  With a consulting team of 6 people...? That actually sounds too low.
- kc10 10y ago
  $17k/month in consulting is actually not too much. For 22 working days, 8hrs a day, for about $100/hour you can earn $17k month.
- gargarplex 10y ago
  I make $30k+ in months when I am asked to work longer hours (50h of billable time). I wrote a book about how to break into consulting as a programmer; link in profile. The key is prospecting. I offer a fee chapter, devoted to 15 channels for finding clients.
- hiddencost 10y ago
  I've billed $40k in one month. Typical months are closer to $30k. I have fairly specialized machine learning skills.
  - ZeroFries 10y ago
    Do you need an advanced degree to do this? How did you land on your niche?
    - hiddencost 10y ago
      You need to be well known in the academic community, have worked on important and well known products, and spend a lot of time on potential clients. We have one person (the one with the most connections) who just finds contracts by going to trade shows and curating connections, and the rest of us work on them. I've worked on products that you've used :)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- kleinsch 10y ago
  Been doing this for 3 years. There are tons of programming gigs at $100+/hour. $100 * 40 * 4.33 = $17320 per month. It's usually tough to fill 40 hours consistently, but if your rates are higher, you can work less hours.
gigatexal 10y ago
These side gigs and businesses can scale to something larger than just one consultant is what I think the point is
callmeed 10y ago
Because the common perception is that a software product has a marginal cost of near zero and can scale, whereas consulting limits you to your billable hours and requires constantly chasing down new clients. You may debate the merits of that argument and it doesn't take into account product maintenance and support–but I think there is some validity to it. Also, some SaaS/product success stories take the path of CONSULTING/AGENCY -> PRODUCT -> SUCCESS (e.g. Basecamp, SEOmoz, FreshBooks) but you rarely hear of the reverse.
- morgante 10y ago
  > You may debate the merits of that argument and it doesn't take into account product maintenance and support–but I think there is some validity to it. That's very true, but I'd also speculate that the vast majority of software products never pay back the flat cost of development. IndieHackers is a compendium of founders who were successful enough to be worth interviewing, and even the vast majority of them make less from their projects than consulting can make. > most SaaS/product success stories take the path of CONSULTING/AGENCY -> PRODUCT -> SUCCESS (e.g. Basecamp, SEOmoz, FreshBooks) but you rarely hear of the reverse Arguably that's because it's so common that it's not worth talking about. I know tons of people who have launched projects which ended up failing, so they fell back on consulting revenue. Far more people than have successful side projects.
  - callmeed 10y ago
    All fair points. Although IMO saying "the vast majority of software products never pay back the flat cost of development" is unfair. Remember, these are "side" projects usually being built as a personal scratch-your-own-itch, learning exercise, or hobby. An exact opportunity cost equation doesn't always work. Different people are motivated by different things I suppose.
  - beberlei 10y ago
    Sunk cost fallacy at work here. Yes, side projects may never pay back dev investment, but if you have already written all that code and invested, then you should not use that as a cost factor to make decisions about the future.
erikrothoff 10y ago
For me it's the drive to try to build something that might become something. (I was interviewed for indiehackers but only have 3k recurring revenue, so did not really peak any interest here on HN :) Sure I can consult 110% and probably earn enough as three full time jobs. But I already have everything. Gadgets are not very exciting when your employer gives you top-of-the-line Macbooks and iPhones. I don't play video games. It's just an itch. Like hobby level soccer players who don't earn a cent yet play matches during weekends and train weeknights. It's a hobby, with an added benefit of actually maybe sustaining a full time developer (lower end of salary tier) in the future.
- morgante 10y ago
  I'm definitely with you on the hobby aspect. That's why I keep trying: I do love building new products. The problem is that I don't really enjoy the other aspects of building a side business (marketing, sales, etc.) so it's hard to sustain those when the revenue is so pitiful. Would you mind linking to your interview? $3k/m is certainly respectable and more than I've ever reached.
  - erikrothoff 10y ago
    Absolutely! https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/feeder https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/feeder Also posting revenues is never really interesting without talking about costs... Also taxes take a lot from different directions, so even after hosting costs it's VAT and corporate tax and even more. That's when you see the scale needed to actually succeed with it for a living. As for the other side (marketing etc) I couldn't agree more. Getting in a third person who actually likes that part made a massive difference for us. Not only for the product, but also within the team. I can really respect why having complementing co-founders is so important.
    - morgante 10y ago
      Thanks for sharing, feeder looks very impressive. I think you should raise your prices. Working with a team definitely makes a huge difference. It's a lot easier to stay motivated when someone else is handling their specialty and you're accountable to them as well as yourself.
20years 10y ago
Don't get me wrong, I think IndieHackers is cool and enjoy reading these stories but I also think people who are running very profitable SaaS businesses may be hesitant on doing an IndieHackers interview. We don't think of our projects as "side projects" and don't really want to be grouped in as an Indie Hacker.
- morgante 10y ago
  > We don't think of our projects as "side projects" and don't really want to be grouped in as an Indie Hacker. That's a fair point and maybe something csallen could take into consideration for branding. The success story for side projects should generally be that they cease to be side projects. I'd be very interested in hearing about more businesses which started as bootstrapped side projects.
- csallen 10y ago
  Interesting, I haven't spoken to anyone from a bigger company who's given me this feedback before. Usually if they decline to be interviewed, it's because they're not comfortable sharing their revenue. I've had a lot more success getting interviews for people in this category for my upcoming podcast, where I don't require revenue to be shared. Hopefully their interviews will help make it clear that the Indie Hackers label isn't only for side projects. (The tagline on the homepage does say "profitable businesses and side projects, after all.) By the way, I'm not sure what company you're from, but if you're interested in appearing, feel free to get in touch :D
- cardine 10y ago
  I would agree with this. Several years ago we were averaging $50k/mo with me and one employee, and we are now bigger in terms of both revenue and people. However I consider myself a profitable bootstrapped startup, not a side project or anything of that nature.
  - csallen 10y ago
    You should consider doing an interview, too! Indie Hackers is for both businesses and side projects, and features interviews with lots of startup founders. As long as you have a venture that people could learn from, it'd be awesome to feature your story on the site or in the upcoming podcast! If you're interested, hit me up at courtland@indiehackers.com.
senko 10y ago
They're (at least somewhat) passive income, while your consulting work is not. Once up and running, these projects typically require far less time and effort to maintain, and majority of time is spent in improvements so the revenue grows in the future. Or the owner can just sit back, relax, and enjoy the Four Hour Work Week [tm]. As a contrast, consulting gig is good money while you're working. When you stop (vacation, illness, whatever), the money flow stops as well.
- jxm262 10y ago
  Thanks for mentioning. This is something I needed to be reminded of myself. As part of my new year's resolution, I want to get serious about building a product from one of my seemingly endless ideas that I never execute on. I often give up part way through when I notice that my consulting pays exponentially more, but neglected to consider the passive side of the equation
  - beambot 10y ago
    If your goal is truly to build a business rather than just "side project for its own sake", then you might be trying to launch with too many features. Best advice I've ever seen on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13213871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13213871
    - jxm262 10y ago
      Yeah I also glanced at that earlier , but didn't read through it fully. This does seem to echo alot of the reasons why I don't follow through with things - ie. build too many features when I originally start off with 1 straigtforward goal. I think at this point, most of what's holding me back is psychological. I'm going to make a very strong attempt at figuring out how I can best focus on not act all ADD on my ideas.
- tracker1 10y ago
  I'm trying to be motivated enough to finish one of my own project ideas and get it up and running next week... Had a rough couple months (extenuating circumstances) and my goal is to have enough relatively passive income to cover the essential bills so I don't stress out as much as I have been. Although my model won't be recurring revenue, so will have to do enough marketing to keep a more consistent churn. Fortunately, I can do some pretty targeted marketing in a service that isn't saturated, and the incumbents haven't kept up well.
pryelluw 10y ago
You, not others. Im happy your business is profitable. Bit others dont have the same options. We just play the hand we were given. :)
proee 10y ago
You need to consider the fact that Tim is creating a real asset that has a market valuation based on a multiplier of revenue and/or profits. In the business I created with my cofounder, we never made that much on a monthly basis, but when we finally sold the company, we did very well. So to motivate yourself, just ask yourself how much would you like your business to be worth if you ever decide to sell it?
- gbrits 10y ago
  As one reference point, I've seen smaller saas-companies go for about [2,3] times ARR. Source: following feinternational newsletter. Always thought that was a bit dissapointing. Care to share your experience?
yazanl 10y ago
While it may be more lucrative to be a consultant, it may be harder for people to get into that career. I am not a consultant, so my experience is limited, but it seems that its all about having contacts and being good. If it's your first programming job, you may have neither the skills nor the contacts to be a successful consultant.
- theparanoid 10y ago
  Contacts is just knowing other programmers.
traviswingo 10y ago
Its more about earning passive income from something that was fun to build. I built my side projects simply because I thought it would be fun to build them. The passive income from something I only maintain a few hours a week is just a nice bonus.
lemming 10y ago
Because money isn't everything. What I'm working on isn't a side project, it's my main gig, but it's paying the bills nicely. But I started this after quitting from a post-acquisition job at Google paying $400k plus 4 years of retention bonus totalling a lot of money. I would absolutely have been financially much, much better off at Google. But I would have had to live in the US which I didn't want to do, and I would have spent my life in meetings, and I would have been working at least 50 hours a week on things that didn't interest me. Currently I live in a small town that I love with no tech scene or jobs, I make a good living, and I spend lots of time with my wife and daughter. Importantly, I spend time with them whenever I feel like it, or when they need me to, and not when it's good for some company. I have great users and I enjoy improving their lives through my product, which is mostly a lot of fun to work on. A few people have mentioned that working on your own thing requires a bunch of things that you'd rather not do - marketing etc, as well as things that are taken care of for you at larger companies such as setting up payment systems, worrying about tax, and so on. That is all true, but it's massively offset in my case by not having employees or bosses, and not having meetings. The sum total of doing things I'd rather not do is much, much higher working at a company doing those things than what I do now, where I spend most of my days writing interesting code and a relatively small fraction of my time on boring stuff.
- cheez 10y ago
  "Money isn't everything" - guy who obviously made more than 2 million USD working at Google for 4 years... I don't want to say you're wrong, but money isn't everything is easy to say when you have it.
  - lemming 10y ago
    Perhaps it wasn't clear in my comment - I quit right out of the gate instead of staying at Google. I essentially turned the job down.
    - robotresearcher 10y ago
      For reference: 'Quitting' a job means you accepted the job offer and did the job, even very briefly. 'Turning down' a job means you did not accept the offer.
overcast 10y ago
The idea here is to get enough of these autonomous side projects, that the revenue adds up. Maybe one out of ten will hit big enough to move on.
farm_code 10y ago
When you do consulting, you create asset for the client. But in side projects the asset can be yours. And assets may grow in value compared to consulting revenue.
bbcbasic 10y ago
I doubt I could make 17k/m consulting while doing something I enjoy. I could probably make that by getting into the business side of things and away from tech.
mathattack 10y ago
I respect your position. When you are trying to pay the bills, every dollar is the same shade of green. When you are trying to establish enterprise value, it's different. The value of a company is roughly (m/(i-c+g) - f) where m = margin dollars, i = the interest rate of your funders, c = churn, g = revenue growth and f = fixed costs. If you have a repeatable (and growable) cash flow, then it's worth a lot more than consulting work that you have to win every year. The math is highly oversimplified, but this is why a company like LinkedIn (Or Ariba in Web 1.0) can sell for 8 or 10 times revenue.
madeofpalk 10y ago
> How do people keep motivated to work on side projects when consulting is so much more profitable? They're side projects. Unless consulting is your side project, I don't really see the ultimatum here. Either you enjoy working on side projects or you don't. The 'passive' income you get from them is a really nice benefit, but still the reason why you do a side project (as opposed to making it a full-time project) should be because you enjoy making things.
yeukhon 10y ago
Consider you make 6k a month, plus 17k a month is a huge jump for a side project. Not that many people can make more than 17K a month...
koonsolo 10y ago
Don't focus on what revenue he makes per month. Next to his revenue, he's also building value into his company. When you are ill, don't work in the weekend, go on holiday, you don't get paid. His business keeps selling, in weekends, during vacations. When he wants to get out, he can sell his company for 2x to 4x his annual profit. Or he can remove himself out of the equation and spend only a small amount of time on it, and still make a profit each month. He is building something of value next to getting paid, you are not.
ivanhoe 10y ago
Well, thing is that not everyone can charge that kind of money for consulting. It depends very much on the kind of work that you do and your location, and also on ones business skills. So if you can, then by any mean you should concentrate you efforts on the consulting. If I understood correctly this guy was from Romania, so from the beginning his options were probably much more limiting; for Eastern Europe $17K/month is a huge money.
coldtea 10y ago
>How do people keep motivated to work on side projects when consulting is so much more profitable? For one, you get to work on what YOU like, and do it the way YOU want it done. Second, in lots of places in the world, that's equal or way more than you can make in consulting. And not everybody has the connections to go into consulting or desires to move to another country like the US to make more money. Third, these money can be passive income, in which case, you do minimal or even no work, and still get them. That's a huge win, even if you make less you have 8+ more hours per day free for yourself.

merpnderp 10y ago

If you can make more than $17k/month from straight consulting, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter please.

morgante 10y ago
I don't have a newsletter, but if you send an email to me@morgante.net I'll let you know if I ever start one.
ffumarola 10y ago
At a modest $200/hr, that's 85 hours. It definitely can be hard to line up that much work month after month, but I've had a few months in a row where I achieved that level of consulting revenue. The key is to keep raising your rates.
- zump 10y ago
  I'm a new grad, but since when do consultants get to charge > ~double the hourly rate of what wages would be? Did I miss the memo?
  - kleinsch 10y ago
    Happens all the time. As a consultant you're responsible for self employment tax (7.5%), benefits, vacation, sick leave, etc. You also have no job security, so you need to make enough that you can cover gaps in between gigs that ended. You price it into your hourly rate accordingly. So yes, your hourly rate is significantly higher than a comparable salaried employee. No, you're not actually ending up with double the money at the end of the day.
    - malz 10y ago
      Fair, but what's in it for the company? Why pay me a huge hourly rate when they could hire an employee for less? There are various answers to this: specialized knowledge, limited engagement, and so on. But it's important to establish your value as a consultant along these lines.
      - MichaelBurge 10y ago
        Employees are extremely undesirable to have. They're highly regulated, and mean that you have to hire HR departments to mitigate the constant risk of being sued. And there are many many regulations that kick in after you have X number of employees, so many companies stay at X-1 employees until they're ready to make the jump to 2X employees. With a consultant, you cut them a check, they do the work, and then they go away. No hassle or risk. It's the difference between logging onto a website like Fiverr and putting in your credit card, and paying a lawyer $500/hour to help you set up an employee health care plan.
    - zump 10y ago
      How do I establish a background to be a profitable consultant? - Work at X company for Y years? - GitHub? - Networking?
      - snowwrestler 10y ago
        You need to be able to find clients without spending a fortune on marketing. Networking is good for this; there are a ton of blog posts about how to build up a professional network. Low-cost "thought leader" content marketing might work too, like blogging, an email newsletter, social media presence. You also need to understand what problems your potential clients are facing. This takes experience, which can come from working as an employee in that industry. You need to convince your potential clients that you will reliably solve their problem--not only the technical skills, but the ability to apply them on time, on budget, and do what you say you can do. Case studies and client referrals are key here. Working at X company for Y years is a good way to learn all about the problems that companies like X face, and to develop some stories about how you have solved those problems professionally. It can also be a good way to build a network. GitHub is useful if it demonstrates skill and perseverance. If it is filled with half-done hobby projects, it will be useless or even a detriment. It is less important than a good track record on actual paying projects. Finally, to be a profitable consultant, you need to know how to run the business--to estimate your expenses and set rates that are competitive but still make enough money. EDIT: the blog at http://www.kalzumeus.com http://www.kalzumeus.com is chock full of detailed content on how to start your own software business, including consulting.
  - morgante 10y ago
    In addition to the factors kleinsch mentioned, consultants aren't necessarily charging double the hourly rate of employees. Most of the consultants charging >$150/hr are people who could readily get a job in Big Tech paying >$250k/yr.
  - patio11 10y ago
    Two memos from the archives: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8706043 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8706043 (see in particular the linked comment) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387 (why a consultancy charges an $8k per month programmer out at $6k per week)
beambot 10y ago
With a consulting team of 6 people...? That actually sounds too low.
kc10 10y ago
$17k/month in consulting is actually not too much. For 22 working days, 8hrs a day, for about $100/hour you can earn $17k month.
gargarplex 10y ago
I make $30k+ in months when I am asked to work longer hours (50h of billable time). I wrote a book about how to break into consulting as a programmer; link in profile. The key is prospecting. I offer a fee chapter, devoted to 15 channels for finding clients.
hiddencost 10y ago
I've billed $40k in one month. Typical months are closer to $30k. I have fairly specialized machine learning skills.
- ZeroFries 10y ago
  Do you need an advanced degree to do this? How did you land on your niche?
  - hiddencost 10y ago
    You need to be well known in the academic community, have worked on important and well known products, and spend a lot of time on potential clients. We have one person (the one with the most connections) who just finds contracts by going to trade shows and curating connections, and the rest of us work on them. I've worked on products that you've used :)
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
kleinsch 10y ago
Been doing this for 3 years. There are tons of programming gigs at $100+/hour. $100 * 40 * 4.33 = $17320 per month. It's usually tough to fill 40 hours consistently, but if your rates are higher, you can work less hours.

gigatexal 10y ago

These side gigs and businesses can scale to something larger than just one consultant is what I think the point is

callmeed 10y ago

Because the common perception is that a software product has a marginal cost of near zero and can scale, whereas consulting limits you to your billable hours and requires constantly chasing down new clients. You may debate the merits of that argument and it doesn't take into account product maintenance and support–but I think there is some validity to it. Also, some SaaS/product success stories take the path of CONSULTING/AGENCY -> PRODUCT -> SUCCESS (e.g. Basecamp, SEOmoz, FreshBooks) but you rarely hear of the reverse.

morgante 10y ago
> You may debate the merits of that argument and it doesn't take into account product maintenance and support–but I think there is some validity to it. That's very true, but I'd also speculate that the vast majority of software products never pay back the flat cost of development. IndieHackers is a compendium of founders who were successful enough to be worth interviewing, and even the vast majority of them make less from their projects than consulting can make. > most SaaS/product success stories take the path of CONSULTING/AGENCY -> PRODUCT -> SUCCESS (e.g. Basecamp, SEOmoz, FreshBooks) but you rarely hear of the reverse Arguably that's because it's so common that it's not worth talking about. I know tons of people who have launched projects which ended up failing, so they fell back on consulting revenue. Far more people than have successful side projects.
- callmeed 10y ago
  All fair points. Although IMO saying "the vast majority of software products never pay back the flat cost of development" is unfair. Remember, these are "side" projects usually being built as a personal scratch-your-own-itch, learning exercise, or hobby. An exact opportunity cost equation doesn't always work. Different people are motivated by different things I suppose.
- beberlei 10y ago
  Sunk cost fallacy at work here. Yes, side projects may never pay back dev investment, but if you have already written all that code and invested, then you should not use that as a cost factor to make decisions about the future.

erikrothoff 10y ago

For me it's the drive to try to build something that might become something. (I was interviewed for indiehackers but only have 3k recurring revenue, so did not really peak any interest here on HN :) Sure I can consult 110% and probably earn enough as three full time jobs. But I already have everything. Gadgets are not very exciting when your employer gives you top-of-the-line Macbooks and iPhones. I don't play video games. It's just an itch. Like hobby level soccer players who don't earn a cent yet play matches during weekends and train weeknights. It's a hobby, with an added benefit of actually maybe sustaining a full time developer (lower end of salary tier) in the future.

morgante 10y ago
I'm definitely with you on the hobby aspect. That's why I keep trying: I do love building new products. The problem is that I don't really enjoy the other aspects of building a side business (marketing, sales, etc.) so it's hard to sustain those when the revenue is so pitiful. Would you mind linking to your interview? $3k/m is certainly respectable and more than I've ever reached.
- erikrothoff 10y ago
  Absolutely! https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/feeder https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/feeder Also posting revenues is never really interesting without talking about costs... Also taxes take a lot from different directions, so even after hosting costs it's VAT and corporate tax and even more. That's when you see the scale needed to actually succeed with it for a living. As for the other side (marketing etc) I couldn't agree more. Getting in a third person who actually likes that part made a massive difference for us. Not only for the product, but also within the team. I can really respect why having complementing co-founders is so important.
  - morgante 10y ago
    Thanks for sharing, feeder looks very impressive. I think you should raise your prices. Working with a team definitely makes a huge difference. It's a lot easier to stay motivated when someone else is handling their specialty and you're accountable to them as well as yourself.

20years 10y ago

Don't get me wrong, I think IndieHackers is cool and enjoy reading these stories but I also think people who are running very profitable SaaS businesses may be hesitant on doing an IndieHackers interview. We don't think of our projects as "side projects" and don't really want to be grouped in as an Indie Hacker.

morgante 10y ago
> We don't think of our projects as "side projects" and don't really want to be grouped in as an Indie Hacker. That's a fair point and maybe something csallen could take into consideration for branding. The success story for side projects should generally be that they cease to be side projects. I'd be very interested in hearing about more businesses which started as bootstrapped side projects.
csallen 10y ago
Interesting, I haven't spoken to anyone from a bigger company who's given me this feedback before. Usually if they decline to be interviewed, it's because they're not comfortable sharing their revenue. I've had a lot more success getting interviews for people in this category for my upcoming podcast, where I don't require revenue to be shared. Hopefully their interviews will help make it clear that the Indie Hackers label isn't only for side projects. (The tagline on the homepage does say "profitable businesses and side projects, after all.) By the way, I'm not sure what company you're from, but if you're interested in appearing, feel free to get in touch :D
cardine 10y ago
I would agree with this. Several years ago we were averaging $50k/mo with me and one employee, and we are now bigger in terms of both revenue and people. However I consider myself a profitable bootstrapped startup, not a side project or anything of that nature.
- csallen 10y ago
  You should consider doing an interview, too! Indie Hackers is for both businesses and side projects, and features interviews with lots of startup founders. As long as you have a venture that people could learn from, it'd be awesome to feature your story on the site or in the upcoming podcast! If you're interested, hit me up at courtland@indiehackers.com.

senko 10y ago

They're (at least somewhat) passive income, while your consulting work is not. Once up and running, these projects typically require far less time and effort to maintain, and majority of time is spent in improvements so the revenue grows in the future. Or the owner can just sit back, relax, and enjoy the Four Hour Work Week [tm]. As a contrast, consulting gig is good money while you're working. When you stop (vacation, illness, whatever), the money flow stops as well.

jxm262 10y ago
Thanks for mentioning. This is something I needed to be reminded of myself. As part of my new year's resolution, I want to get serious about building a product from one of my seemingly endless ideas that I never execute on. I often give up part way through when I notice that my consulting pays exponentially more, but neglected to consider the passive side of the equation
- beambot 10y ago
  If your goal is truly to build a business rather than just "side project for its own sake", then you might be trying to launch with too many features. Best advice I've ever seen on this topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13213871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13213871
  - jxm262 10y ago
    Yeah I also glanced at that earlier , but didn't read through it fully. This does seem to echo alot of the reasons why I don't follow through with things - ie. build too many features when I originally start off with 1 straigtforward goal. I think at this point, most of what's holding me back is psychological. I'm going to make a very strong attempt at figuring out how I can best focus on not act all ADD on my ideas.
tracker1 10y ago
I'm trying to be motivated enough to finish one of my own project ideas and get it up and running next week... Had a rough couple months (extenuating circumstances) and my goal is to have enough relatively passive income to cover the essential bills so I don't stress out as much as I have been. Although my model won't be recurring revenue, so will have to do enough marketing to keep a more consistent churn. Fortunately, I can do some pretty targeted marketing in a service that isn't saturated, and the incumbents haven't kept up well.

pryelluw 10y ago

You, not others. Im happy your business is profitable. Bit others dont have the same options. We just play the hand we were given. :)

proee 10y ago

You need to consider the fact that Tim is creating a real asset that has a market valuation based on a multiplier of revenue and/or profits. In the business I created with my cofounder, we never made that much on a monthly basis, but when we finally sold the company, we did very well. So to motivate yourself, just ask yourself how much would you like your business to be worth if you ever decide to sell it?

gbrits 10y ago
As one reference point, I've seen smaller saas-companies go for about [2,3] times ARR. Source: following feinternational newsletter. Always thought that was a bit dissapointing. Care to share your experience?

yazanl 10y ago

While it may be more lucrative to be a consultant, it may be harder for people to get into that career. I am not a consultant, so my experience is limited, but it seems that its all about having contacts and being good. If it's your first programming job, you may have neither the skills nor the contacts to be a successful consultant.

theparanoid 10y ago
Contacts is just knowing other programmers.

traviswingo 10y ago

Its more about earning passive income from something that was fun to build. I built my side projects simply because I thought it would be fun to build them. The passive income from something I only maintain a few hours a week is just a nice bonus.

lemming 10y ago

Because money isn't everything. What I'm working on isn't a side project, it's my main gig, but it's paying the bills nicely. But I started this after quitting from a post-acquisition job at Google paying $400k plus 4 years of retention bonus totalling a lot of money. I would absolutely have been financially much, much better off at Google. But I would have had to live in the US which I didn't want to do, and I would have spent my life in meetings, and I would have been working at least 50 hours a week on things that didn't interest me. Currently I live in a small town that I love with no tech scene or jobs, I make a good living, and I spend lots of time with my wife and daughter. Importantly, I spend time with them whenever I feel like it, or when they need me to, and not when it's good for some company. I have great users and I enjoy improving their lives through my product, which is mostly a lot of fun to work on. A few people have mentioned that working on your own thing requires a bunch of things that you'd rather not do - marketing etc, as well as things that are taken care of for you at larger companies such as setting up payment systems, worrying about tax, and so on. That is all true, but it's massively offset in my case by not having employees or bosses, and not having meetings. The sum total of doing things I'd rather not do is much, much higher working at a company doing those things than what I do now, where I spend most of my days writing interesting code and a relatively small fraction of my time on boring stuff.

cheez 10y ago
"Money isn't everything" - guy who obviously made more than 2 million USD working at Google for 4 years... I don't want to say you're wrong, but money isn't everything is easy to say when you have it.
- lemming 10y ago
  Perhaps it wasn't clear in my comment - I quit right out of the gate instead of staying at Google. I essentially turned the job down.
  - robotresearcher 10y ago
    For reference: 'Quitting' a job means you accepted the job offer and did the job, even very briefly. 'Turning down' a job means you did not accept the offer.

overcast 10y ago

The idea here is to get enough of these autonomous side projects, that the revenue adds up. Maybe one out of ten will hit big enough to move on.

farm_code 10y ago

When you do consulting, you create asset for the client. But in side projects the asset can be yours. And assets may grow in value compared to consulting revenue.

bbcbasic 10y ago

I doubt I could make 17k/m consulting while doing something I enjoy. I could probably make that by getting into the business side of things and away from tech.

mathattack 10y ago

I respect your position. When you are trying to pay the bills, every dollar is the same shade of green. When you are trying to establish enterprise value, it's different. The value of a company is roughly (m/(i-c+g) - f) where m = margin dollars, i = the interest rate of your funders, c = churn, g = revenue growth and f = fixed costs. If you have a repeatable (and growable) cash flow, then it's worth a lot more than consulting work that you have to win every year. The math is highly oversimplified, but this is why a company like LinkedIn (Or Ariba in Web 1.0) can sell for 8 or 10 times revenue.

madeofpalk 10y ago

> How do people keep motivated to work on side projects when consulting is so much more profitable? They're side projects. Unless consulting is your side project, I don't really see the ultimatum here. Either you enjoy working on side projects or you don't. The 'passive' income you get from them is a really nice benefit, but still the reason why you do a side project (as opposed to making it a full-time project) should be because you enjoy making things.

yeukhon 10y ago

Consider you make 6k a month, plus 17k a month is a huge jump for a side project. Not that many people can make more than 17K a month...

koonsolo 10y ago

Don't focus on what revenue he makes per month. Next to his revenue, he's also building value into his company. When you are ill, don't work in the weekend, go on holiday, you don't get paid. His business keeps selling, in weekends, during vacations. When he wants to get out, he can sell his company for 2x to 4x his annual profit. Or he can remove himself out of the equation and spend only a small amount of time on it, and still make a profit each month. He is building something of value next to getting paid, you are not.

ivanhoe 10y ago

Well, thing is that not everyone can charge that kind of money for consulting. It depends very much on the kind of work that you do and your location, and also on ones business skills. So if you can, then by any mean you should concentrate you efforts on the consulting. If I understood correctly this guy was from Romania, so from the beginning his options were probably much more limiting; for Eastern Europe $17K/month is a huge money.

coldtea 10y ago

>How do people keep motivated to work on side projects when consulting is so much more profitable? For one, you get to work on what YOU like, and do it the way YOU want it done. Second, in lots of places in the world, that's equal or way more than you can make in consulting. And not everybody has the connections to go into consulting or desires to move to another country like the US to make more money. Third, these money can be passive income, in which case, you do minimal or even no work, and still get them. That's a huge win, even if you make less you have 8+ more hours per day free for yourself.