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"Tech" companies treat their engineers as investments Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC treats their engineers as expenses this isn't relevant to just sa

"Tech" companies treat their engineers as investments Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC treats their engineers as expenses this isn't relevant to just salaries, but to the tools available and requested, to the blanket IT policies

micaksica 10y ago
> Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC treats their engineers as expenses Mister Business can go without engineers, then. You'd think he'd let his own biases not get in the way of how a market actually works. It's not just MBAs that act this way. A lot of engineers believe that their rockstar skillset is the only one that runs a company, and therefore only they should be compensated at some "elite" status.
- WaxProlix 10y ago
  Might just be another instance of everyone living at the center of their own universe - their skillset is the most valuable, their viewpoint the most legitimate, etc. While I do love me a good anti-MBA circlejerk from time to time, this is probably not the best target. If Mr Business didn't try to optimize and pay his engineers as little as possible, for instance, The Market would be broken in another way.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Of course But the engineer who put up with Mr. Business crap are not the brightest ones usually. And to be fair they probably won't care to correct when Mr. Business wants to do something stupid (or just don't know this is the case). Or even if they do care Mr. B knows better right? Because he's the boss Then Mr B goes out of business because his product sucks, or "gets hacked".
- user5994461 10y ago
  I've never seen a company where engineers were the "elite" status.
mtgx 10y ago
Which is why I wouldn't trust any of the traditional car makers with their "self-driving cars" over the next decade...or two.
- GVIrish 10y ago
  Don't trust the Silicon Valley 'break the rules until you're forced to stop' types either. The traditional car makers are much more likely to be very deliberate and methodical about the tremendous variability in conditions that a self-driving car has to succeed in. On the other side you have guys like George Hotz who had a reporter in the car with him when he turned on the self-driving system he had only gotten working that morning..
  - pzh 10y ago
    > On the other side you have guys like George Hotz who had a reporter in the car with him when he turned on the self-driving system he had only gotten working that morning.. Do you think that's actually true? I thought it was just something that George Hotz misguidedly said for dramatic effect...
    - GVIrish 10y ago
      I hope he was being dramatic but judging from how he responded to the NHTSA letter he received and his general disregard for regulations I have to take him at his word.
- __derek__ 10y ago
  Do you have reason to believe that they treat their software engineers poorly? I know people who work on software at Ford and GM, and they seem to enjoy it. Plus, just based on Glassdoor[1][2], the salaries seem pretty good relative to cost of living. Edit: On another read-through, my comment is a non sequitur. The Big Three are just so intertwined with automakers in my mind that it was hard to shake the association, even knowing that this article is about Japanese car companies. [1]: Software Engineers at Ford: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E263_D_KO19,36.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Software... [2]: Software Engineers at GM: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E279_D_KO15,32.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Eng... // Software Developers (not sure about the title difference) at GM: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Developer-Salaries-E279_D_KO15,33.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Dev...
ChuckMcM 10y ago
Yes, and technical engineers are like designing in bits of platinum to the engine, its more expensive but that it what it takes to get the performance out of the product. They (the MBA types), of all people, should understand that. And I think they do, what they don't like is that given the expense and what they expect they can charge for the service, they can't figure out how to get the profit margin they want/need. It has been my experience that nothing is more frustrating to an MBA than a really killer market winning idea that happens to be unimplementable because the humans involved need to be paid to build or operate it.
- id122015 10y ago
  Your last paragraph seems unreal. A business person is not someone who has an MBA but someone who had a proof of running a successful business. Idnt that the same treatment CS graduates get ?
  - toomuchtodo 10y ago
    People confuse credentials as having the same weight as experience, when reality couldn't be further from the truth.
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    There are CS graduates that are frustrated that their perfectly good algorithm or idea takes "too much" CPU time or memory to run. And in that way they are similar. It is the notion of the 'unreasonable man' who wants something which reasonable people consider impossible.
pjmlp 10y ago
Not only that, Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC is what gives bad name to consulting with fixed size projects and zero expectations about quality, as long as, it kind of works.

micaksica 10y ago

> Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC treats their engineers as expenses Mister Business can go without engineers, then. You'd think he'd let his own biases not get in the way of how a market actually works. It's not just MBAs that act this way. A lot of engineers believe that their rockstar skillset is the only one that runs a company, and therefore only they should be compensated at some "elite" status.

WaxProlix 10y ago
Might just be another instance of everyone living at the center of their own universe - their skillset is the most valuable, their viewpoint the most legitimate, etc. While I do love me a good anti-MBA circlejerk from time to time, this is probably not the best target. If Mr Business didn't try to optimize and pay his engineers as little as possible, for instance, The Market would be broken in another way.
raverbashing 10y ago
Of course But the engineer who put up with Mr. Business crap are not the brightest ones usually. And to be fair they probably won't care to correct when Mr. Business wants to do something stupid (or just don't know this is the case). Or even if they do care Mr. B knows better right? Because he's the boss Then Mr B goes out of business because his product sucks, or "gets hacked".
user5994461 10y ago
I've never seen a company where engineers were the "elite" status.

mtgx 10y ago

Which is why I wouldn't trust any of the traditional car makers with their "self-driving cars" over the next decade...or two.

GVIrish 10y ago
Don't trust the Silicon Valley 'break the rules until you're forced to stop' types either. The traditional car makers are much more likely to be very deliberate and methodical about the tremendous variability in conditions that a self-driving car has to succeed in. On the other side you have guys like George Hotz who had a reporter in the car with him when he turned on the self-driving system he had only gotten working that morning..
- pzh 10y ago
  > On the other side you have guys like George Hotz who had a reporter in the car with him when he turned on the self-driving system he had only gotten working that morning.. Do you think that's actually true? I thought it was just something that George Hotz misguidedly said for dramatic effect...
  - GVIrish 10y ago
    I hope he was being dramatic but judging from how he responded to the NHTSA letter he received and his general disregard for regulations I have to take him at his word.
__derek__ 10y ago
Do you have reason to believe that they treat their software engineers poorly? I know people who work on software at Ford and GM, and they seem to enjoy it. Plus, just based on Glassdoor[1][2], the salaries seem pretty good relative to cost of living. Edit: On another read-through, my comment is a non sequitur. The Big Three are just so intertwined with automakers in my mind that it was hard to shake the association, even knowing that this article is about Japanese car companies. [1]: Software Engineers at Ford: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E263_D_KO19,36.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Ford-Motor-Company-Software... [2]: Software Engineers at GM: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Engineer-Salaries-E279_D_KO15,32.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Eng... // Software Developers (not sure about the title difference) at GM: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Developer-Salaries-E279_D_KO15,33.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/General-Motors-Software-Dev...

ChuckMcM 10y ago

Yes, and technical engineers are like designing in bits of platinum to the engine, its more expensive but that it what it takes to get the performance out of the product. They (the MBA types), of all people, should understand that. And I think they do, what they don't like is that given the expense and what they expect they can charge for the service, they can't figure out how to get the profit margin they want/need. It has been my experience that nothing is more frustrating to an MBA than a really killer market winning idea that happens to be unimplementable because the humans involved need to be paid to build or operate it.

id122015 10y ago
Your last paragraph seems unreal. A business person is not someone who has an MBA but someone who had a proof of running a successful business. Idnt that the same treatment CS graduates get ?
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  People confuse credentials as having the same weight as experience, when reality couldn't be further from the truth.
- ChuckMcM 10y ago
  There are CS graduates that are frustrated that their perfectly good algorithm or idea takes "too much" CPU time or memory to run. And in that way they are similar. It is the notion of the 'unreasonable man' who wants something which reasonable people consider impossible.

pjmlp 10y ago

Not only that, Mr. Business from Business Factory LLC is what gives bad name to consulting with fixed size projects and zero expectations about quality, as long as, it kind of works.