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> He maybe have had a point if he had concentrated on the 25 kph (15.5 mph) speed limit for electric assistance in the EU. That is far too slow. Really? It mak

> He maybe have had a point if he had concentrated on the 25 kph (15.5 mph) speed limit for electric assistance in the EU. That is far too slow. Really? It makes a lot of sense to me. In The Netherlands e-bikes are used mainly by elderly to stay mobile in the face of a weaker body, and sometimes by commuters riding for longer distances. 25km/h is quite fast for a device with as little protection as a bicycle, and more than fast enough when riding in traffic or in an urban area. If you want to go faster and still be able to avoid traffic, you get a moped with a 45km/h limit (helmet, insurance, and licence required), or get a racing bicycle (and a good condition) for those long stretches of road.

throwaway7767 10y ago
I think the speed limits would be better enforced in a similar way as car speed limits are - instead of a limit on the controller, trust the rider to obey the law and bust people who don't. A 25km/h speed limit is probably very reasonable in a dutch city. If I'm riding my bike on a deserted highway in Iceland with 150km between towns, allowing riders to go to 35-40km/h would make ebikes much more practical. My main problem with the regulations is how they're all based around what a bicycle can do, which restricts development of new, innovative use cases for ebikes. The 250W limit was decided because that's what an average healthy adult can maintain for a decent amount of time. But why should an ebike be limited by that? I can get a cargo ebike that can carry 200kg of cargo, but that 250W motor isn't going to get it up the hill. A speed limit on that kind of vehicle makes perfect sense, but a 250W power limit seems much too restrictive.
- cstejerean 10y ago
  Because once you get to higher speeds you probably need a moped with proper brakes and a helmet, insurance, a drivers license, etc. Same for hauling 200kg of cargo, that will also require stronger brakes, etc.
- Johnny555 10y ago
  Why would you ride a 40km/hr eBike on a deserted highway with 150km between towns when you could ride a 100km/hr+ electric motorcycle? If you have to travel long distances, an eBike is probably not the right vehicle unless you're just out for the ride to enjoy the scenery, and if that's the case, is 25km/hr really a problem?
  - throwaway7767 10y ago
    > Why would you ride a 40km/hr eBike on a deserted highway with 150km between towns when you could ride a 100km/hr+ electric motorcycle? Because I want to? Riding an ebike is a very different experience to riding a motorcycle (I have my motorcycle license and have owned a motorcycle in the past). You see more of the land, but sometimes you want to go a bit faster than 25km/h without going 100km/h. This is sort of like demanding someone justify their use of a car since we have public transit. Besides, the law shouldn't be based on "why would you?", it should be based on solid safety arguments. I can see the validity of those within cities, but not so much in more rural areas.
    - Johnny555 10y ago
      The law isn't there based on "why would you?" it's there based on "Is it safe to..." You have a very specific use case, if you can buy a bike that goes 40km/hr on a deserted road, you'll also be able to use that same 40km/hr bike on crowded urban bike paths. If you want a vehicle that goes faster than a bike, there are plenty of options. The faster vehicles abide by more stringent safety standards and have restrictions on where they can ride (i.e. you can't ride a motorcycle on a bike path, but depending on where you are, you might be able to ride a speed restricted moped there).
      - throwaway7767 10y ago
        > You have a very specific use case, if you can buy a bike that goes 40km/hr on a deserted road, you'll also be able to use that same 40km/hr bike on crowded urban bike paths. Right, just like people who buy Teslas that can go 200+km/h can take those cars to the residential street with 15km/h limit and children playing in the street. We make laws that apply to the operator of the vehicle, instead of deciding a maximum safe speed for cars of 15km/h and applying a limiter to every car's engine. That's my whole point - the law should apply to how the engine is used, same as most every other class of vehicle out there.
    - Freak_NL 10y ago
      In a lot of countries any motorised vehicle moving in excess of a certain speed is subject to certain safety requirements (such as a helmet or an enclosure, insurance, and a driver's licence). If you take a bicycle, add a powerful engine, and ride it at 40km/h, then legally speaking you don't have an e-bike; you have a moped or whatever the relevant category is called in the local jurisdiction. To prevent everyone buying e-bikes from having to deal with safety requirements that are not deemed relevant below 25km/h, the lawmaker's have decided to limit this class of vehicle to those speeds.
tomjen3 10y ago
25km/h isn't that much when you are commuting. The only thing it does is make it more attractive to drive, which clogs the roads. At least make it the 30km/h mopeds are allowed to do on bike paths here in Denmark. Those don't require a separate license if you are over 18 either.
adrianN 10y ago
A healthy, somewhat fit individual can go 30km/h on a decent bike for extended periods of time. With a little tail-wind 40 is doable. 40 is also about the speed where most bikes' smallest gear starts to become uncomfortable. I find it strange that the cutoff is at 25 and not at 30-35. With the current limit an e-bike is not very attractive for active people.
- dagw 10y ago
  Many bikers aren't health, somewhat fit individuals with a decent bike capable of going 30km/h for extended periods of time. They're normal people on some random cheap bike just who want to get to work without being drenched in sweat. Those are the people you have to take into account, not active people out biking for fun.
michaelt 10y ago
If the question is "why aren't people buying electric bikes" then the reason's probably different for different market segments. Electric bikes seem to cost $1000+. Here in the UK I know plenty of people who can't maintain 25kph for long. And I know plenty of people who spent $1000+ on their bike. But I don't know anyone who belongs to /both/ those groups.
Brakenshire 10y ago
The big problem with 15mph in my opinion is it doesn't allow you to keep up with traffic in 20mph zones. Whole swathes of London are 20mph, if you're going at 15mph it means you're going to get overtaken in roads which are not suitable for overtaking, and that is much more dangerous than travelling with traffic flow at the speed limit. Perhaps in reality the bike helps you to speed up to 15mph, then you as a rider can take over, but these bikes end up being very heavy. In my opinion it would be much more sensible to have a speed limit in bike lanes which applies to all cyclists (people travelling on normal bikes at 35mph is dangerous in a narrow lane, alongside people pootling along at 10mph), and then a higher limit for e-bikes, perhaps almost exactly 20mph, or 30 kph.
- Freak_NL 10y ago
  > The big problem with 15mph in my opinion is it doesn't allow you to keep up with traffic in 20mph zones. Neither can normal bicycles though (unless you are physically able to do so, but that too holds true for an e-bike).
  - Brakenshire 10y ago
    e-bikes are knackered though for full human power because of mountain bike / hybrid frames & tyres, and weight.

throwaway7767 10y ago

I think the speed limits would be better enforced in a similar way as car speed limits are - instead of a limit on the controller, trust the rider to obey the law and bust people who don't. A 25km/h speed limit is probably very reasonable in a dutch city. If I'm riding my bike on a deserted highway in Iceland with 150km between towns, allowing riders to go to 35-40km/h would make ebikes much more practical. My main problem with the regulations is how they're all based around what a bicycle can do, which restricts development of new, innovative use cases for ebikes. The 250W limit was decided because that's what an average healthy adult can maintain for a decent amount of time. But why should an ebike be limited by that? I can get a cargo ebike that can carry 200kg of cargo, but that 250W motor isn't going to get it up the hill. A speed limit on that kind of vehicle makes perfect sense, but a 250W power limit seems much too restrictive.

cstejerean 10y ago
Because once you get to higher speeds you probably need a moped with proper brakes and a helmet, insurance, a drivers license, etc. Same for hauling 200kg of cargo, that will also require stronger brakes, etc.
Johnny555 10y ago
Why would you ride a 40km/hr eBike on a deserted highway with 150km between towns when you could ride a 100km/hr+ electric motorcycle? If you have to travel long distances, an eBike is probably not the right vehicle unless you're just out for the ride to enjoy the scenery, and if that's the case, is 25km/hr really a problem?
- throwaway7767 10y ago
  > Why would you ride a 40km/hr eBike on a deserted highway with 150km between towns when you could ride a 100km/hr+ electric motorcycle? Because I want to? Riding an ebike is a very different experience to riding a motorcycle (I have my motorcycle license and have owned a motorcycle in the past). You see more of the land, but sometimes you want to go a bit faster than 25km/h without going 100km/h. This is sort of like demanding someone justify their use of a car since we have public transit. Besides, the law shouldn't be based on "why would you?", it should be based on solid safety arguments. I can see the validity of those within cities, but not so much in more rural areas.
  - Johnny555 10y ago
    The law isn't there based on "why would you?" it's there based on "Is it safe to..." You have a very specific use case, if you can buy a bike that goes 40km/hr on a deserted road, you'll also be able to use that same 40km/hr bike on crowded urban bike paths. If you want a vehicle that goes faster than a bike, there are plenty of options. The faster vehicles abide by more stringent safety standards and have restrictions on where they can ride (i.e. you can't ride a motorcycle on a bike path, but depending on where you are, you might be able to ride a speed restricted moped there).
    - throwaway7767 10y ago
      > You have a very specific use case, if you can buy a bike that goes 40km/hr on a deserted road, you'll also be able to use that same 40km/hr bike on crowded urban bike paths. Right, just like people who buy Teslas that can go 200+km/h can take those cars to the residential street with 15km/h limit and children playing in the street. We make laws that apply to the operator of the vehicle, instead of deciding a maximum safe speed for cars of 15km/h and applying a limiter to every car's engine. That's my whole point - the law should apply to how the engine is used, same as most every other class of vehicle out there.
  - Freak_NL 10y ago
    In a lot of countries any motorised vehicle moving in excess of a certain speed is subject to certain safety requirements (such as a helmet or an enclosure, insurance, and a driver's licence). If you take a bicycle, add a powerful engine, and ride it at 40km/h, then legally speaking you don't have an e-bike; you have a moped or whatever the relevant category is called in the local jurisdiction. To prevent everyone buying e-bikes from having to deal with safety requirements that are not deemed relevant below 25km/h, the lawmaker's have decided to limit this class of vehicle to those speeds.

tomjen3 10y ago

25km/h isn't that much when you are commuting. The only thing it does is make it more attractive to drive, which clogs the roads. At least make it the 30km/h mopeds are allowed to do on bike paths here in Denmark. Those don't require a separate license if you are over 18 either.

adrianN 10y ago

A healthy, somewhat fit individual can go 30km/h on a decent bike for extended periods of time. With a little tail-wind 40 is doable. 40 is also about the speed where most bikes' smallest gear starts to become uncomfortable. I find it strange that the cutoff is at 25 and not at 30-35. With the current limit an e-bike is not very attractive for active people.

dagw 10y ago
Many bikers aren't health, somewhat fit individuals with a decent bike capable of going 30km/h for extended periods of time. They're normal people on some random cheap bike just who want to get to work without being drenched in sweat. Those are the people you have to take into account, not active people out biking for fun.

michaelt 10y ago

If the question is "why aren't people buying electric bikes" then the reason's probably different for different market segments. Electric bikes seem to cost $1000+. Here in the UK I know plenty of people who can't maintain 25kph for long. And I know plenty of people who spent $1000+ on their bike. But I don't know anyone who belongs to /both/ those groups.

Brakenshire 10y ago

The big problem with 15mph in my opinion is it doesn't allow you to keep up with traffic in 20mph zones. Whole swathes of London are 20mph, if you're going at 15mph it means you're going to get overtaken in roads which are not suitable for overtaking, and that is much more dangerous than travelling with traffic flow at the speed limit. Perhaps in reality the bike helps you to speed up to 15mph, then you as a rider can take over, but these bikes end up being very heavy. In my opinion it would be much more sensible to have a speed limit in bike lanes which applies to all cyclists (people travelling on normal bikes at 35mph is dangerous in a narrow lane, alongside people pootling along at 10mph), and then a higher limit for e-bikes, perhaps almost exactly 20mph, or 30 kph.

Freak_NL 10y ago
> The big problem with 15mph in my opinion is it doesn't allow you to keep up with traffic in 20mph zones. Neither can normal bicycles though (unless you are physically able to do so, but that too holds true for an e-bike).
- Brakenshire 10y ago
  e-bikes are knackered though for full human power because of mountain bike / hybrid frames & tyres, and weight.