4 ms·

Got a source? I want to read it.

by rjurney 10y ago

stevebmark 10y ago
There are literally thousands of studies on fluoroquinolones. Unfortunately none directly show tooth decay but the private support communities have. Simply Googling for "fluoroquinolone mmp" will return many studies to start from. Tendon rupture and retinal detachment are well documented. There are also many reasons why side effects from these drugs are under-reported and under-studied. For example, fluoroquinolones have been around since the 70s, but the first case report of tendon rupture did not appear until 1983. After all, who would believe an antibiotic would cause a tendon rupture up to years after taking it? Doctors to this day do not usually believe that patients' spontaneous ruptures are caused by fluoroquinolones, despite being well documented in the scientific literature now.
derefr 10y ago
Not a source, but a corollary of the parent's claim that might be easier to look up: doxycycline, an MMP inhibitor, is used (under the trade name "Periostat") as a prophylactic after dental root planing to prevent damage to the enamel.
- stevebmark 10y ago
  Your original question, "what happens if a drug downregulates MMPs" - is a great question and the tip of a largely unexplored iceberg. MMPs are involved in many diseases, including fluoroquinolone insidious poisoning. They are implicated in heart disease and neurological disease like MS, for example. They are also implicated in general aging, because they destroy collagen which is considered to be irreplaceable in the body (hence why wrinkles are permanent). Doxy is a known MMP inhibitor which may have benefits extending past its antibiotic range. An important related question is why are MMPs upregulated by fluoroquinolones? One answer is that TIMPs are downregulated [1]. TIMPs are the antagonist to MMPs, they bind to MMPs and deactivate them. This is one way your body maintains MMP control. Researching TIMP upregulators and MMP downregulators may help people suffering from permanent fluoroquinolone damage (like myself) deal with the constant pain and tissue destruction. These also have implications in aging and anti-aging technology. Notably, food from the ocean is well known to balance TIMP/MMP regulation [2]. Some natural antioxidants may also have the same effect [2]. This unexplored research is important both for tooth decay like the original article (since MMPs eat dentin, the hard tissue in teeth, and apparently enamel as well), and most tissue in the body, as fluoroquinolone sufferers experience in a hellish, constant reality. [1] http://www.mltj.org/materiale_cic/704_3_3/6081_new/article.htm http://www.mltj.org/materiale_cic/704_3_3/6081_new/article.h... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2707034/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2707034/
  - graeme 10y ago
    Hmm. Took one course of cipro in early 2010. The year after that was the worst of my life health wise. After that, have steadily improved. I can't say it's cipro related. The stuff that happened was: very bad digestion, chronic left arm pain due to typing in a poor ergonomic position, and a bike accident + broken tooth (this clearly wasn't due to an antibiotic). I did, however, likely acquire MRSA in a wound on my chin that I got during the bike accident (I found out I had MRSA five years later; it had moved to my nose and persisted there at an asymptomatic/occasional flare up level). MRSA seems linked to cipro usage. I also acquired tinnitus at some point, most likely after the bike accident. My liver enzymes also tend to be on the high end of the normal range or slightly above it. May have started bruxism that year or the one after, but it's hard to date when teeth grinding started. That one could be something that developed after the bike accident. Nothing necessarily specific to cipro. But, supposing it did contribute to any of that, is there a normal protocol to reverse effects? Beyond what you wrote above, which would be: eat seafood and certain antioxidants (which?) I'm in a pretty good state right now, and also nowhere near certain Cipro had any impact on me. But, it was a very rough year, and I had always been in excellent health prior to that. So if there's some sort of low side effect thing I could adopt such as certain foods, it's worth trying. btw, here's the source on cipro and MRSA. I hadn't know about this link: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120921/Ciprofloxacin-use-is-major-contributor-to-MRSA-spread-in-hospitals.aspx http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120921/Ciprofloxacin-use-...
    - stevebmark 10y ago
      FQs are some of the most powerful antibiotics in terms of destroying healthy gut bacteria, and likely cause permanent gut flora changes after use. Some of the bacteria it destroys are oxygen sensitive, so they aren't in probiotics because they can't survive long enough to be manufactured into a pill. Muscle problems, especially muscle twitches, are very common among FQ toxicity sufferers. This is suspected nerve damage but there may be other factors. FQs are well known to cause tinnitus, with the suspected biological mechanism being nerve damage to the ear. Unfortunately, the medical community is severely lacking in treating these conditions, so there are no reliable tests for determining the underlying damage. It may be impossible to definitively know if any of these things were caused by the cipro.
jpmoral 10y ago
Not exactly what you're asking, but here's an FDA advisory on the use of fluoroquinolones: http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm511530.htm http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm511530.htm

Got a source? I want to read it.

by rjurney 10y ago

Got a source? I want to read it.

There are literally thousands of studies on fluoroquinolones. Unfortunately none directly show tooth decay but the private support communities have. Simply Googling for "fluoroquinolone mmp" will return many studies to start from. Tendon rupture and retinal detachment are well documented. There are also many reasons why side effects from these drugs are under-reported and under-studied. For example, fluoroquinolones have been around since the 70s, but the first case report of tendon rupture did not appear until 1983. After all, who would believe an antibiotic would cause a tendon rupture up to years after taking it? Doctors to this day do not usually believe that patients' spontaneous ruptures are caused by fluoroquinolones, despite being well documented in the scientific literature now.

derefr 10y ago

Not a source, but a corollary of the parent's claim that might be easier to look up: doxycycline, an MMP inhibitor, is used (under the trade name "Periostat") as a prophylactic after dental root planing to prevent damage to the enamel.

stevebmark 10y ago
Your original question, "what happens if a drug downregulates MMPs" - is a great question and the tip of a largely unexplored iceberg. MMPs are involved in many diseases, including fluoroquinolone insidious poisoning. They are implicated in heart disease and neurological disease like MS, for example. They are also implicated in general aging, because they destroy collagen which is considered to be irreplaceable in the body (hence why wrinkles are permanent). Doxy is a known MMP inhibitor which may have benefits extending past its antibiotic range. An important related question is why are MMPs upregulated by fluoroquinolones? One answer is that TIMPs are downregulated [1]. TIMPs are the antagonist to MMPs, they bind to MMPs and deactivate them. This is one way your body maintains MMP control. Researching TIMP upregulators and MMP downregulators may help people suffering from permanent fluoroquinolone damage (like myself) deal with the constant pain and tissue destruction. These also have implications in aging and anti-aging technology. Notably, food from the ocean is well known to balance TIMP/MMP regulation [2]. Some natural antioxidants may also have the same effect [2]. This unexplored research is important both for tooth decay like the original article (since MMPs eat dentin, the hard tissue in teeth, and apparently enamel as well), and most tissue in the body, as fluoroquinolone sufferers experience in a hellish, constant reality. [1] http://www.mltj.org/materiale_cic/704_3_3/6081_new/article.htm http://www.mltj.org/materiale_cic/704_3_3/6081_new/article.h... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2707034/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2707034/
- graeme 10y ago
  Hmm. Took one course of cipro in early 2010. The year after that was the worst of my life health wise. After that, have steadily improved. I can't say it's cipro related. The stuff that happened was: very bad digestion, chronic left arm pain due to typing in a poor ergonomic position, and a bike accident + broken tooth (this clearly wasn't due to an antibiotic). I did, however, likely acquire MRSA in a wound on my chin that I got during the bike accident (I found out I had MRSA five years later; it had moved to my nose and persisted there at an asymptomatic/occasional flare up level). MRSA seems linked to cipro usage. I also acquired tinnitus at some point, most likely after the bike accident. My liver enzymes also tend to be on the high end of the normal range or slightly above it. May have started bruxism that year or the one after, but it's hard to date when teeth grinding started. That one could be something that developed after the bike accident. Nothing necessarily specific to cipro. But, supposing it did contribute to any of that, is there a normal protocol to reverse effects? Beyond what you wrote above, which would be: eat seafood and certain antioxidants (which?) I'm in a pretty good state right now, and also nowhere near certain Cipro had any impact on me. But, it was a very rough year, and I had always been in excellent health prior to that. So if there's some sort of low side effect thing I could adopt such as certain foods, it's worth trying. btw, here's the source on cipro and MRSA. I hadn't know about this link: http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120921/Ciprofloxacin-use-is-major-contributor-to-MRSA-spread-in-hospitals.aspx http://www.news-medical.net/news/20120921/Ciprofloxacin-use-...
  - stevebmark 10y ago
    FQs are some of the most powerful antibiotics in terms of destroying healthy gut bacteria, and likely cause permanent gut flora changes after use. Some of the bacteria it destroys are oxygen sensitive, so they aren't in probiotics because they can't survive long enough to be manufactured into a pill. Muscle problems, especially muscle twitches, are very common among FQ toxicity sufferers. This is suspected nerve damage but there may be other factors. FQs are well known to cause tinnitus, with the suspected biological mechanism being nerve damage to the ear. Unfortunately, the medical community is severely lacking in treating these conditions, so there are no reliable tests for determining the underlying damage. It may be impossible to definitively know if any of these things were caused by the cipro.

jpmoral 10y ago

Not exactly what you're asking, but here's an FDA advisory on the use of fluoroquinolones: http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm511530.htm http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm511530.htm