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The problem with a vision of robots manufacturing things for 'wizards' seems to me that it replaces the production side of our current system, but not the cons

The problem with a vision of robots manufacturing things for 'wizards' seems to me that it replaces the production side of our current system, but not the consumption side. If we are all made redundant, how will we buy their wares? Or, if you take the more sanguine view, why would they need to make them at all if no one would buy them? Either way, it would be a dramatically unbalanced arrangement...

canadian_voter 10y ago
They don't need anyone to buy their wares if they are self reliant and can produce everything they need. We're not talking about making more and faster cell-phones with less labour, we're talking about a small group of people making everything they need without the need for any labour at all. That might not be a "handful" of people, but it's certainly a smaller number than our current population. Who needs coal miners if we have all the cheap solar we can use? Who needs farmers if we automate farming? Who needs drivers, maids, schoolteachers, cooks, etc. if we can have the machines do it for us? Who needs lawyers if our disputes are simply settled by some AI judge? Who needs cops if our streets are patrolled by security robots and we have a Minority Report style crime-prediction system. In a way, it's paradise -- if you're at the top. Oh, and I'm pretty sure they suggest democracy as we know it is dead. One person, one vote? Only in an age of massed human warfare. If you can take out a million or a billion people with high-tech biological warfare (and those people aren't producing anything anyway) what good are they and why do they deserve the vote? Not saying it's right, but the logic of megapolitical violence is cruel and unyielding. It's quite the lens.
- Thetawaves 10y ago
  So where does everybody go when their jobs have been eliminated? What will young people do to make themselves valuable and provide for themselves and their families? Eventually the losers in this equation will risk everything to correct the inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Muammar_Gaddafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Muammar_Gaddafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
  - nickthemagicman 10y ago
    Technology has radically shifted the kill gap. A more technologically advanced soldier can kill exponentially more combatants who have less technology. And that gap is just getting bigger and bigger until we get rid of that soldier entirely and he is replaced by a robot or drone swarm. 18 U.S. soldiers to 300 enenmys dead(20 years ago) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993) 4000 to 24,000 enemys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War That kill gap is just getting bigger and bigger as the years go by. American soldiers can use I.R. to 'see through walls'...how can a guy with an AK47 and a canteen compete with that.
    - gohrt 10y ago
      > how can a guy with an AK47 and a canteen compete with that. suicide attacks (bombs, airplanes, nuclear radiation) ...which is exactly what we see today.
      - crucifiction 10y ago
        But that is a nuisance more than the ability to own/maintain control.
      - nickthemagicman 10y ago
        Yeah but as the military gets more automated, and we're seeing it already with drones, hellfire missiles, tomahawks, autonomous tanks, the 'wizards in a tower' will not be affected by those. http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/ausa-global-force/2016/03/17/army-autonomous-system-strategy/81897736/ http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/ausa-glo...
    - pmyjavec 10y ago
      To be honest, they might be impressive figures but the whole military campaign has been quite a failure. Maybe the solider is able to kill more, but it doesn't seem like much has been accomplished.
- h_r 10y ago
  >and we have a Minority Report style crime-prediction system. Off topic but since you mentioned it... I was so disappointed when the prediction system turned out to be just magic and no technology at all.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Funny, to me it's the opposite; one can't imagine such a fantastic technology without making it sound like magic anyway, and I respect PKD for avoiding the inevitable technobabble-laden "explanations" of how it would work.
    - h_r 10y ago
      I understand your reaction but the movie was supposed to be a dystopian view of future technology and this "technology" was the central concept of the movie, not some peripheral interesting idea. The entire structure was built on a mushy foundation, in my mind anyway.
shams93 10y ago
Exactly we are a consumer based economy. Robots don't wear blue jeans, the most important job we do is consuming.

canadian_voter 10y ago

They don't need anyone to buy their wares if they are self reliant and can produce everything they need. We're not talking about making more and faster cell-phones with less labour, we're talking about a small group of people making everything they need without the need for any labour at all. That might not be a "handful" of people, but it's certainly a smaller number than our current population. Who needs coal miners if we have all the cheap solar we can use? Who needs farmers if we automate farming? Who needs drivers, maids, schoolteachers, cooks, etc. if we can have the machines do it for us? Who needs lawyers if our disputes are simply settled by some AI judge? Who needs cops if our streets are patrolled by security robots and we have a Minority Report style crime-prediction system. In a way, it's paradise -- if you're at the top. Oh, and I'm pretty sure they suggest democracy as we know it is dead. One person, one vote? Only in an age of massed human warfare. If you can take out a million or a billion people with high-tech biological warfare (and those people aren't producing anything anyway) what good are they and why do they deserve the vote? Not saying it's right, but the logic of megapolitical violence is cruel and unyielding. It's quite the lens.

Thetawaves 10y ago
So where does everybody go when their jobs have been eliminated? What will young people do to make themselves valuable and provide for themselves and their families? Eventually the losers in this equation will risk everything to correct the inequality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Muammar_Gaddafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Muammar_Gaddafi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring
- nickthemagicman 10y ago
  Technology has radically shifted the kill gap. A more technologically advanced soldier can kill exponentially more combatants who have less technology. And that gap is just getting bigger and bigger until we get rid of that soldier entirely and he is replaced by a robot or drone swarm. 18 U.S. soldiers to 300 enenmys dead(20 years ago) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993) 4000 to 24,000 enemys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War That kill gap is just getting bigger and bigger as the years go by. American soldiers can use I.R. to 'see through walls'...how can a guy with an AK47 and a canteen compete with that.
  - gohrt 10y ago
    > how can a guy with an AK47 and a canteen compete with that. suicide attacks (bombs, airplanes, nuclear radiation) ...which is exactly what we see today.
    - crucifiction 10y ago
      But that is a nuisance more than the ability to own/maintain control.
    - nickthemagicman 10y ago
      Yeah but as the military gets more automated, and we're seeing it already with drones, hellfire missiles, tomahawks, autonomous tanks, the 'wizards in a tower' will not be affected by those. http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/ausa-global-force/2016/03/17/army-autonomous-system-strategy/81897736/ http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/show-daily/ausa-glo...
  - pmyjavec 10y ago
    To be honest, they might be impressive figures but the whole military campaign has been quite a failure. Maybe the solider is able to kill more, but it doesn't seem like much has been accomplished.
h_r 10y ago
>and we have a Minority Report style crime-prediction system. Off topic but since you mentioned it... I was so disappointed when the prediction system turned out to be just magic and no technology at all.
- icebraining 10y ago
  Funny, to me it's the opposite; one can't imagine such a fantastic technology without making it sound like magic anyway, and I respect PKD for avoiding the inevitable technobabble-laden "explanations" of how it would work.
  - h_r 10y ago
    I understand your reaction but the movie was supposed to be a dystopian view of future technology and this "technology" was the central concept of the movie, not some peripheral interesting idea. The entire structure was built on a mushy foundation, in my mind anyway.

shams93 10y ago

Exactly we are a consumer based economy. Robots don't wear blue jeans, the most important job we do is consuming.