3 ms·

Timers and automation are a thing.

Symbiote 10y ago
Those patterns would be easily detected in the dataset. I tried logging my electricity use. You can easily see what time I wake up each day, when I get home, whether I watch TV or not, whether I cook using the microwave or the hob. It doesn't show up on my graph, but I'd bet from the data you can see exactly when I go to bed, since I plug in my phone (+1W) and switch off the last light (-5W). Within all this, the fridge compressor turning on and off is easily ignored.
- ansgri 10y ago
  Thus you have a training dataset. Train a statistical model, and with enough programmability in your smart home it will be easy to forge a rather normal-looking pattern in your absence. And I'd probably use some special fire-proofed energy dissipation device instead of the more powerful real ones (e.g. the hob). EDIT: the internet surfing patterns are another story. But you can probably VPN to your home through some newly-installed network interface and access the net as if you were there.
  - Godel_unicode 10y ago
    Exactly so. And then there's the corollary of times you come home, walk around back and drink beer on the patio watching the sunset with friends and eating takeout.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  Yes, by the exact amount of current used, the logger can tell what you've got on at any moment. It can be correlated with water usage as well. It'll log how many times you flush, and whether you brush your teeth. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the government tries to require a device that logs all our conversations at home. It'll be sold as "crucial for law enforcement". The Echo is a technological marvel. But who's to say Amazon doesn't get a "national security letter" one day where they're forced to send a patch to the machine to have it log everything? Some day, if I'm bedridden or some such, I'd welcome an Echo in the house. Until then, I'd rather get up and turn a manual switch. I could use the exercise anyway :-)
  - throwawayy24 10y ago
    They're not going to have to patch what you can touch because they already want for themselves the information the government is going to request.
- jat850 10y ago
  May I ask how you collected this data? I am extremely interested in doing the same. For me right now, my power usage is "stuff goes on, money goes out".
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    I have a CurrentCost power logger, given to me as part of the British government's insistence that power companies try and reduce power usage. The choice was a power meter or some low-energy bulbs. I was lucky to move house just after the rules came in, but before cheap, residential versions of the logging devices were on the market -- mine has a serial port! It outputs a line of XML every 6 seconds showing power use, measured with a probe which clamps around the live wire where it enters the house. I've since moved again, and my newly built apartment has the wires hidden, so I can no longer use the probe. http://www.currentcost.com/product-envir.html http://www.currentcost.com/product-envir.html -- but make sure you get one with a serial port.
- rickyc091 10y ago
  Ha, reminds me of when I brought my iPhone into repair due to a faulty battery. They took a look at the charts and noticed a high usage of power in the morning and then it would stay charged the rest of the day while I was at work. When the device was unplugged was when I left.
- Godel_unicode 10y ago
  > Those patterns would be easily detected in the dataset You left off the implied "unless the intent of those systems is to create the appearance of occupancy". You know that a pattern associated with waking up happened. You don't know if I'm home or not. Now add in the case which happens to me sometimes where my morning ritual automation kicks in because my phone is home (but I'm not).
  - fixermark 10y ago
    If I recall correctly, this argument has been successfully applied, from a legal standpoint, in the context of traffic from IP addresses on shared resources not mapping to individual user behavior (and, relatedly, in the context of a vehicle being photographed in violation of the law not proving that the vehicle's owner was driving the vehicle at the time the law was violated). I imagine it'd be a harder argument to make, before a jury in a criminal trial, that the dataset showed the house was occupied because the occupant had rigged beforehand an elaborate system of intentional resource wastage to fake occupancy in the way that would fuzz a police investigation, as opposed to the much simpler explanation "the suspect was home." Burden of proof might be high.
- luma 10y ago
  > It doesn't show up on my graph, but I'd bet from the data you can see exactly when I go to bed, since I plug in my phone (+1W) and switch off the last light (-5W). You'd probably have a viable business model if you could actually do that. Existing options like Neurio cannot reliably detect devices pulling single-digit power draws.
  - robjan 10y ago
    Assuming that digital electric meters are fair, it's quite easy to use them for this purpose. Most houses in the UK are fitted/will be fitted with them.
kakarot 10y ago
Circumvention is not the solution. It doesn't solve the problem for Average Joe.

Those patterns would be easily detected in the dataset. I tried logging my electricity use. You can easily see what time I wake up each day, when I get home, whether I watch TV or not, whether I cook using the microwave or the hob. It doesn't show up on my graph, but I'd bet from the data you can see exactly when I go to bed, since I plug in my phone (+1W) and switch off the last light (-5W). Within all this, the fridge compressor turning on and off is easily ignored.

ansgri 10y ago
Thus you have a training dataset. Train a statistical model, and with enough programmability in your smart home it will be easy to forge a rather normal-looking pattern in your absence. And I'd probably use some special fire-proofed energy dissipation device instead of the more powerful real ones (e.g. the hob). EDIT: the internet surfing patterns are another story. But you can probably VPN to your home through some newly-installed network interface and access the net as if you were there.
- Godel_unicode 10y ago
  Exactly so. And then there's the corollary of times you come home, walk around back and drink beer on the patio watching the sunset with friends and eating takeout.
WalterBright 10y ago
Yes, by the exact amount of current used, the logger can tell what you've got on at any moment. It can be correlated with water usage as well. It'll log how many times you flush, and whether you brush your teeth. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the government tries to require a device that logs all our conversations at home. It'll be sold as "crucial for law enforcement". The Echo is a technological marvel. But who's to say Amazon doesn't get a "national security letter" one day where they're forced to send a patch to the machine to have it log everything? Some day, if I'm bedridden or some such, I'd welcome an Echo in the house. Until then, I'd rather get up and turn a manual switch. I could use the exercise anyway :-)
- throwawayy24 10y ago
  They're not going to have to patch what you can touch because they already want for themselves the information the government is going to request.
jat850 10y ago
May I ask how you collected this data? I am extremely interested in doing the same. For me right now, my power usage is "stuff goes on, money goes out".
- Symbiote 10y ago
  I have a CurrentCost power logger, given to me as part of the British government's insistence that power companies try and reduce power usage. The choice was a power meter or some low-energy bulbs. I was lucky to move house just after the rules came in, but before cheap, residential versions of the logging devices were on the market -- mine has a serial port! It outputs a line of XML every 6 seconds showing power use, measured with a probe which clamps around the live wire where it enters the house. I've since moved again, and my newly built apartment has the wires hidden, so I can no longer use the probe. http://www.currentcost.com/product-envir.html http://www.currentcost.com/product-envir.html -- but make sure you get one with a serial port.
rickyc091 10y ago
Ha, reminds me of when I brought my iPhone into repair due to a faulty battery. They took a look at the charts and noticed a high usage of power in the morning and then it would stay charged the rest of the day while I was at work. When the device was unplugged was when I left.
Godel_unicode 10y ago
> Those patterns would be easily detected in the dataset You left off the implied "unless the intent of those systems is to create the appearance of occupancy". You know that a pattern associated with waking up happened. You don't know if I'm home or not. Now add in the case which happens to me sometimes where my morning ritual automation kicks in because my phone is home (but I'm not).
- fixermark 10y ago
  If I recall correctly, this argument has been successfully applied, from a legal standpoint, in the context of traffic from IP addresses on shared resources not mapping to individual user behavior (and, relatedly, in the context of a vehicle being photographed in violation of the law not proving that the vehicle's owner was driving the vehicle at the time the law was violated). I imagine it'd be a harder argument to make, before a jury in a criminal trial, that the dataset showed the house was occupied because the occupant had rigged beforehand an elaborate system of intentional resource wastage to fake occupancy in the way that would fuzz a police investigation, as opposed to the much simpler explanation "the suspect was home." Burden of proof might be high.
luma 10y ago
> It doesn't show up on my graph, but I'd bet from the data you can see exactly when I go to bed, since I plug in my phone (+1W) and switch off the last light (-5W). You'd probably have a viable business model if you could actually do that. Existing options like Neurio cannot reliably detect devices pulling single-digit power draws.
- robjan 10y ago
  Assuming that digital electric meters are fair, it's quite easy to use them for this purpose. Most houses in the UK are fitted/will be fitted with them.

kakarot 10y ago

Circumvention is not the solution. It doesn't solve the problem for Average Joe.