4 ms·

I think the most exciting thing (and we're way behind schedule on this, a lot of this could have easily been done literally 30 years ago, no problem at all), is

I think the most exciting thing (and we're way behind schedule on this, a lot of this could have easily been done literally 30 years ago, no problem at all), is caravan functionality, where a group of cars moves together. If you imagine 20 cars at a standstill for some reason, if they begin to move forward slowly but at the same time (less than 50 millisecond apart) because they're coordinated then they can get up to speed almost as fast as if it were only just one car (let's say they have to speed up a bit more slowly for a safety allowance). But if you factor in human response time, it can be a phantom traffic jam. There is no reason for a traffic jam because there is clear road all the way ahead of the group - yet a traffic jam slowly makes its way back anyway. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goVjVVaLe10&t=1m55s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goVjVVaLe10&t=1m55s coordinating this stuff doesn't require computer vision or truly self-driving cars or anything like it and could have been done 30 years ago (1986) over an AM radio standard and some kind of coordination between cars - just nobody sat down and designed that standard. today wireless coordination technology offers dozens of choices (in the gigahertz domain) and caravans could be assembled all but "trivially", cars can know where they are via gps with no problems at all. That would be an exciting move forward. Of course, it only works when everyone is doing it, but if just a few traffic jams instantly disappear (the ones where are the cars happen to have caravan functionality and coordinate) it would improve things for everyone: the traffic jam will disappear whenever it bunches up in a way that happens to consist of coordinated cars. (e.g. a 3-car phantom jam slowly moving backward will disappear whenever it crosses 3 caravan-enabled cars - not every car has to have this functionality). But I haven't read anything about Tesla coordinating even with other Teslas, let alone some standard of intercar coordination. A shame - this stuff is way easier than the self-driving stuff Tesla and others are doing. It's very low-hanging fruit.

carterehsmith 10y ago
>> some standard of intercar coordination There is this "V2V" initiative by NHTSA: https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/vehicle-vehicle-communications https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/vehicle-vehicle-...
tobz 10y ago
I think you're trivializing even the required effort to coordinate two cars, let alone multiple cars. How do you direct the signal to only cars in your lane? In your direction of travel? How much efficiency is lost if all of the drivers don't give themselves enough space between the car in front of them and their own vehicle? Now they have to wait to move forward. How do you get all drivers to roll forward together at the same rate of acceleration? You could have the last few questions handled by a computer, but you'd still have to overcome a lot of other hurdles (namely location awareness, peer-to-peer communication, infrastructure changes to road signals if you don't have self-driving cars which can detect light states, etc) before you could even accomplish something this simple at scale.
- logicallee 10y ago
  it's absolutely trivial compared to self-driving cars which have to perceive their environment, and I don't need to give details. I'm not an automotive engineer. it's trivial. To show you this is trivial without pretending to be an automotive engineer I'll use the example of a screaming auctioneer who sits on top of your steering wheel. A conversation with him might go: "HEY I NOTICE WE'RE STUCK IN A JAM IS IT OKAY OF I SIT ON YOUR STEERING WHEEL AND OBSTRUCT YOUR VIEW AND THEN I'LL START PRESSING DOWN ON THE GAS TOGETHER WITH ALL THE OTHER CARS IN THIS TRAFFIC JAM SO WE ALL START MOVING AT ONCE OKAY OKAY OKAY JUST TELL ME IF YOU'VE HAD ENOUGH READY OH LOOK WE HAVE CONTACT BETWEEN THE BUMPER TRANSMISSION LED AND RECEIVER LED AND THE CAR AHEAD OF US'S REAR BUMPER TRANSMISSION LED AND RECEIVER LED OH THIS IS AWESOME THE CAR IN FRONT OF US ISNT'T THE ONLY ONE WITH THIS EQUIPMENT THE CAR IN FRONT OF IT ALSO HAS THIS AND LOOK THE CAR IN FRONT OF OF THAT ONE ALSO HAS IT SO WE'RE ALL HOOKED UP AND AND WHEN THE FRONT CAR STARTS MOVING WE'LL START GOING AHEAD TOO ALL RIGHT JUST PRESS THE BRAKE IF YOU WANT OUT OF THIS BECAUSE WHEN THE FRONT CAR STARTS MOVING I'LL PRESS THE GAS AND MOVE TOO! HEY IT'S MOVING!!! I'M PRESSING THE GAS!!! PRESS THE BRAKE IF YOU WANT THIS TO STOP!!!!! WE'RE MOVING!!! WE'RE MOVING!!!!" it's an absurd example but shows that it's trivial. The only thing necessary to get a stalled phantom traffic jam moving is for all cars to slowly start moving together. they can maintain distance between each other. it's trivial if it requires special equipment such as bumpers that communicate with the car in front or behind them, proximity sensors/detectors, a way to transmit this information intercar and a way for the system to collectively brake or apply gas (like cruise control). if you're an engineer I'm sorry if you can't see how absolutely trivial it is COMPARED WITH SELF-DRIVING CARS. It could easily have been done in the 80's with zero environmental perception, zero awareness of road conditions, nothing, and not hooked up to the steering wheel in any way. You don't need the system to handle any steering, period, in order to be able to break up phantom traffic jams. if you've never invented anything in your life then you'll have to take my word for it that this is trivial, sorry. We're 30 years behind schedule on it and have suffered 30 years of phantom traffic jams that could have disappeared whenever they made their way to high-end cars that could have been equipped with a limited caravan system to start moving together with the drivers' permission. A phantom traffic jam can disappear at every point. Even if just 5% of cars were equipped with the standard. you don't get what a huge deal it is for a few cars to be able to start moving together, coordinated, instead of one after the other. You don't get how 500 ms - 2500 ms of human driver latency means that traffic jams form which otherwise wouldn't and that once it is formed it is impossible to brake up and snakes its way back - but could be broken at ANY point by any group of cars that briefly acted as a caravan. you'll have to just trust me that the technology for this is easily in the realm of what could be done in the 80s. self-driving cars are lightyears ahead of that.

carterehsmith 10y ago

>> some standard of intercar coordination There is this "V2V" initiative by NHTSA: https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/vehicle-vehicle-communications https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/vehicle-vehicle-...

tobz 10y ago

I think you're trivializing even the required effort to coordinate two cars, let alone multiple cars. How do you direct the signal to only cars in your lane? In your direction of travel? How much efficiency is lost if all of the drivers don't give themselves enough space between the car in front of them and their own vehicle? Now they have to wait to move forward. How do you get all drivers to roll forward together at the same rate of acceleration? You could have the last few questions handled by a computer, but you'd still have to overcome a lot of other hurdles (namely location awareness, peer-to-peer communication, infrastructure changes to road signals if you don't have self-driving cars which can detect light states, etc) before you could even accomplish something this simple at scale.

logicallee 10y ago
it's absolutely trivial compared to self-driving cars which have to perceive their environment, and I don't need to give details. I'm not an automotive engineer. it's trivial. To show you this is trivial without pretending to be an automotive engineer I'll use the example of a screaming auctioneer who sits on top of your steering wheel. A conversation with him might go: "HEY I NOTICE WE'RE STUCK IN A JAM IS IT OKAY OF I SIT ON YOUR STEERING WHEEL AND OBSTRUCT YOUR VIEW AND THEN I'LL START PRESSING DOWN ON THE GAS TOGETHER WITH ALL THE OTHER CARS IN THIS TRAFFIC JAM SO WE ALL START MOVING AT ONCE OKAY OKAY OKAY JUST TELL ME IF YOU'VE HAD ENOUGH READY OH LOOK WE HAVE CONTACT BETWEEN THE BUMPER TRANSMISSION LED AND RECEIVER LED AND THE CAR AHEAD OF US'S REAR BUMPER TRANSMISSION LED AND RECEIVER LED OH THIS IS AWESOME THE CAR IN FRONT OF US ISNT'T THE ONLY ONE WITH THIS EQUIPMENT THE CAR IN FRONT OF IT ALSO HAS THIS AND LOOK THE CAR IN FRONT OF OF THAT ONE ALSO HAS IT SO WE'RE ALL HOOKED UP AND AND WHEN THE FRONT CAR STARTS MOVING WE'LL START GOING AHEAD TOO ALL RIGHT JUST PRESS THE BRAKE IF YOU WANT OUT OF THIS BECAUSE WHEN THE FRONT CAR STARTS MOVING I'LL PRESS THE GAS AND MOVE TOO! HEY IT'S MOVING!!! I'M PRESSING THE GAS!!! PRESS THE BRAKE IF YOU WANT THIS TO STOP!!!!! WE'RE MOVING!!! WE'RE MOVING!!!!" it's an absurd example but shows that it's trivial. The only thing necessary to get a stalled phantom traffic jam moving is for all cars to slowly start moving together. they can maintain distance between each other. it's trivial if it requires special equipment such as bumpers that communicate with the car in front or behind them, proximity sensors/detectors, a way to transmit this information intercar and a way for the system to collectively brake or apply gas (like cruise control). if you're an engineer I'm sorry if you can't see how absolutely trivial it is COMPARED WITH SELF-DRIVING CARS. It could easily have been done in the 80's with zero environmental perception, zero awareness of road conditions, nothing, and not hooked up to the steering wheel in any way. You don't need the system to handle any steering, period, in order to be able to break up phantom traffic jams. if you've never invented anything in your life then you'll have to take my word for it that this is trivial, sorry. We're 30 years behind schedule on it and have suffered 30 years of phantom traffic jams that could have disappeared whenever they made their way to high-end cars that could have been equipped with a limited caravan system to start moving together with the drivers' permission. A phantom traffic jam can disappear at every point. Even if just 5% of cars were equipped with the standard. you don't get what a huge deal it is for a few cars to be able to start moving together, coordinated, instead of one after the other. You don't get how 500 ms - 2500 ms of human driver latency means that traffic jams form which otherwise wouldn't and that once it is formed it is impossible to brake up and snakes its way back - but could be broken at ANY point by any group of cars that briefly acted as a caravan. you'll have to just trust me that the technology for this is easily in the realm of what could be done in the 80s. self-driving cars are lightyears ahead of that.