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'“We could never do that in our city” – eight words I’ve heard many times all over the world. It’s amazing how much energy goes into making excuses for why a c

'“We could never do that in our city” – eight words I’ve heard many times all over the world. It’s amazing how much energy goes into making excuses for why a city can’t get better. Although I’ve heard great passion for better city-making here in Perth this week while working with the Heart Foundation, I’ve also heard some of those excuses, while working with stakeholders, politicians and State planning and transport staff. “Perth is different,” I’ve been told, in various ways. It’s true, Perth is different. Every city is. But you’re not THAT different. You’re really not.'

mzw_mzw 10y ago
Who gets to define "better"?
fennecfoxen 10y ago
> It’s amazing how much energy goes into making excuses for why a city can’t get better. At the end of the day there's one reason why most cities in the US won't have decent transit any time soon - that the people who would build the transit do so on the grounds that it is Virtuous and Glorious and Green. Beyond that, they make projections that everyone will ride it and that it'll reinvigorate the economy and reduce traffic. (And if you're against it that's probably because you're an evil Republican which means you probably voted for Trump which means you're probably a Nazi, but I digress.) And then, instead, you get something that goes from nowhere to nowhere, and covers maybe 25% of its operating costs off ticket revenue... before the cost of capital expenditures. And if you think this is exaggeration (including the Trump bits) try reading several articles about the Virginia Beach TIDE light rail project ... which, to sum it up in one number, gets roughly a $8000/rider/year subsidy from the city. But the unionized public transport employees will vote for you and campaign for you and your causes forever.
- sidek 10y ago
  The problem, like the author points out, is that you can build all the rail you want -- but you need to make sure that it goes to places dense enough to support it. When cities fail to do this, you get that ridiculousness.
- djcapelis 10y ago
  BART's fare box recovery ratio is 75% and I believe that includes capex. Almost every highway and road and most parking spaces have a revenue recovery ratio of 0%
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    I see your BART, and raise you Santa Clara VTA Rail. http://www.mercurynews.com/2012/12/26/25-years-later-vta-light-rail-among-the-nations-worst/ http://www.mercurynews.com/2012/12/26/25-years-later-vta-lig... > Almost every highway and road and most parking spaces have a revenue recovery ratio of 0% Theoretically, that's what the fuel tax is for. At the federal level, the highway trust fund raised $35 billion in fuel tax and spend $39 billion on highways (and $8b on transit - the deficit here being covered by the general fund). If we wanted to be generous we'd say that's an 89% recovery ratio, which probably is totally unfair and ignores some important capex somewhere (recent "stimulus" spending, for example) but is substantially more than zero. (State and municipal numbers are quite variable, I'm sure.)
    - djcapelis 10y ago
      I see your BART, and raise you Santa Clara VTA Rail. Right. Instead of joining BART, Santa Clara put that money into car centric expressways and the VTA system and then people use their poor transit planning to indict public transit systems that work. Theoretically, that's what the fuel tax is for. Okay, I think we could say that. Except let's also take into account the following: * That's federal spending on interstates only. State and local recovery ratios are lower. The road in front of your driveway is often the worst, it is an amazing outlay of public service to serve relatively few people. * If you include fuel taxes as part of the recovery ratio for car infrastructure, you should include dedicated sales taxes and other funds as part of the recovery ratio for public transit infrastructure. (Remember, public infrastructure makes things better for car users too. Building an extra parking space helps one car, building a train helps everyone who rides that train and all the car users who no longer have to fight with those people for space on the road or for parking spaces.)
      - 10y ago
- martinald 10y ago
  According to Wikipedia, it has ~5k riders per day, which is approx 2m per year. Are you saying this 8mile light rail requires opex of $16bn, more than the entire NY subway system?
  - fennecfoxen 10y ago
    No, you're just counting every rider 400 times in an exercise where you are deliberately dense.

mzw_mzw 10y ago

Who gets to define "better"?

fennecfoxen 10y ago

> It’s amazing how much energy goes into making excuses for why a city can’t get better. At the end of the day there's one reason why most cities in the US won't have decent transit any time soon - that the people who would build the transit do so on the grounds that it is Virtuous and Glorious and Green. Beyond that, they make projections that everyone will ride it and that it'll reinvigorate the economy and reduce traffic. (And if you're against it that's probably because you're an evil Republican which means you probably voted for Trump which means you're probably a Nazi, but I digress.) And then, instead, you get something that goes from nowhere to nowhere, and covers maybe 25% of its operating costs off ticket revenue... before the cost of capital expenditures. And if you think this is exaggeration (including the Trump bits) try reading several articles about the Virginia Beach TIDE light rail project ... which, to sum it up in one number, gets roughly a $8000/rider/year subsidy from the city. But the unionized public transport employees will vote for you and campaign for you and your causes forever.

sidek 10y ago
The problem, like the author points out, is that you can build all the rail you want -- but you need to make sure that it goes to places dense enough to support it. When cities fail to do this, you get that ridiculousness.
djcapelis 10y ago
BART's fare box recovery ratio is 75% and I believe that includes capex. Almost every highway and road and most parking spaces have a revenue recovery ratio of 0%
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  I see your BART, and raise you Santa Clara VTA Rail. http://www.mercurynews.com/2012/12/26/25-years-later-vta-light-rail-among-the-nations-worst/ http://www.mercurynews.com/2012/12/26/25-years-later-vta-lig... > Almost every highway and road and most parking spaces have a revenue recovery ratio of 0% Theoretically, that's what the fuel tax is for. At the federal level, the highway trust fund raised $35 billion in fuel tax and spend $39 billion on highways (and $8b on transit - the deficit here being covered by the general fund). If we wanted to be generous we'd say that's an 89% recovery ratio, which probably is totally unfair and ignores some important capex somewhere (recent "stimulus" spending, for example) but is substantially more than zero. (State and municipal numbers are quite variable, I'm sure.)
  - djcapelis 10y ago
    I see your BART, and raise you Santa Clara VTA Rail. Right. Instead of joining BART, Santa Clara put that money into car centric expressways and the VTA system and then people use their poor transit planning to indict public transit systems that work. Theoretically, that's what the fuel tax is for. Okay, I think we could say that. Except let's also take into account the following: * That's federal spending on interstates only. State and local recovery ratios are lower. The road in front of your driveway is often the worst, it is an amazing outlay of public service to serve relatively few people. * If you include fuel taxes as part of the recovery ratio for car infrastructure, you should include dedicated sales taxes and other funds as part of the recovery ratio for public transit infrastructure. (Remember, public infrastructure makes things better for car users too. Building an extra parking space helps one car, building a train helps everyone who rides that train and all the car users who no longer have to fight with those people for space on the road or for parking spaces.)
    - 10y ago
martinald 10y ago
According to Wikipedia, it has ~5k riders per day, which is approx 2m per year. Are you saying this 8mile light rail requires opex of $16bn, more than the entire NY subway system?
- fennecfoxen 10y ago
  No, you're just counting every rider 400 times in an exercise where you are deliberately dense.