5 ms·

It wasn't taken by force but instead by Rand's personal complicity and implicit consent by living within a society that has decided to enact the Social Security

It wasn't taken by force but instead by Rand's personal complicity and implicit consent by living within a society that has decided to enact the Social Security and Medicare programs and levy fees and taxes associated with those programs. And given that she received more than she put in, there was no principle for her to stand behind.

dominotw 10y ago
>given that she received more than she put in Do you by any chance have the numbers ?
- wavefunction 10y ago
  Do you have numbers that prove me otherwise? Of course I am repeating a common talking point of the critics of Social Security. I am ok with her having received more than she contributed, monetarily.
  - dominotw 10y ago
    >Do you have numbers that prove me otherwise? burden of proof is on the person making the claim. > I am ok with her having received more than she contributed, monetarily. Its not relevant what your personal opinion on the matter is. You made a specific claim, ask is for you to back it up.
kolbe 10y ago
If that's the case, then I hope you will be just as eager to take personal responsibility for the US's war crimes, if the day of reckoning ever comes. But I have a feeling you will instead try to focus on your personal efforts to end US wars, rather than get sucked into the implication that being a US citizen made you a de facto supporter of the war crimes.
- wavefunction 10y ago
  I would be the first person you might ask to admit my complicity in war crimes perpetrated by my government. I am involved in anti-war and pro-human movements but I readily admit that my quality of life is built on the backs of many innocent lives and deaths.
  - kolbe 10y ago
    So, you're just as much of a hypocrite as Rand? She also dedicated her life to ending behaviors she hated in the US government, but was nevertheless subjected to the consequences of her failure to stop them.
    - wavefunction 10y ago
      No, I am what you would call honest and imperfect, whereas Rand is dishonest and imperfect.
      - kolbe 10y ago
        No, you're not. You live in the US. You pay taxes. Those taxes pay to kill/torture/subjugate people around the world. If you don't leave the country, giving up an entire life that you made for yourself with friends and family here, then you are the exact same type of hypocrite. You say you hate the wars. You even take some actions to try to stop them, but in the end, you pay for them and/or work for the entity that is perpetuating them. (note: I obviously believe neither of you are hypocrites. I'm just trying to make a point.)
        xchaotic 10y ago
        You may have won an Internet Argument(TM) (or they gave up). The glory!
stale2002 10y ago
She was against it. She specifically did NOT give the government her consent. But she was forced to pay it anyway under threat of jail. If you threaten to kidnap people and put them in a cage, you can't go around saying you have their "consent" when they give in to your threats.
loki49152 10y ago
By your logic, any slave in the Old South who didn't try to escape the plantation "consented"to whatever was done to them.
ajss 10y ago
You don't think government taxes by force? What about all the people imprisoned for not paying their taxes? She became a wealthy woman from her successful books, so she paid far more in than she ever took out. Her estate was valued at about a million dollars when she died in 1982. Her total receipts from social security $14,000.

dominotw 10y ago

>given that she received more than she put in Do you by any chance have the numbers ?

wavefunction 10y ago
Do you have numbers that prove me otherwise? Of course I am repeating a common talking point of the critics of Social Security. I am ok with her having received more than she contributed, monetarily.
- dominotw 10y ago
  >Do you have numbers that prove me otherwise? burden of proof is on the person making the claim. > I am ok with her having received more than she contributed, monetarily. Its not relevant what your personal opinion on the matter is. You made a specific claim, ask is for you to back it up.

kolbe 10y ago

If that's the case, then I hope you will be just as eager to take personal responsibility for the US's war crimes, if the day of reckoning ever comes. But I have a feeling you will instead try to focus on your personal efforts to end US wars, rather than get sucked into the implication that being a US citizen made you a de facto supporter of the war crimes.

wavefunction 10y ago
I would be the first person you might ask to admit my complicity in war crimes perpetrated by my government. I am involved in anti-war and pro-human movements but I readily admit that my quality of life is built on the backs of many innocent lives and deaths.
- kolbe 10y ago
  So, you're just as much of a hypocrite as Rand? She also dedicated her life to ending behaviors she hated in the US government, but was nevertheless subjected to the consequences of her failure to stop them.
  - wavefunction 10y ago
    No, I am what you would call honest and imperfect, whereas Rand is dishonest and imperfect.
    - kolbe 10y ago
      No, you're not. You live in the US. You pay taxes. Those taxes pay to kill/torture/subjugate people around the world. If you don't leave the country, giving up an entire life that you made for yourself with friends and family here, then you are the exact same type of hypocrite. You say you hate the wars. You even take some actions to try to stop them, but in the end, you pay for them and/or work for the entity that is perpetuating them. (note: I obviously believe neither of you are hypocrites. I'm just trying to make a point.)
      - xchaotic 10y ago
        You may have won an Internet Argument(TM) (or they gave up). The glory!

stale2002 10y ago

She was against it. She specifically did NOT give the government her consent. But she was forced to pay it anyway under threat of jail. If you threaten to kidnap people and put them in a cage, you can't go around saying you have their "consent" when they give in to your threats.

loki49152 10y ago

By your logic, any slave in the Old South who didn't try to escape the plantation "consented"to whatever was done to them.

ajss 10y ago

You don't think government taxes by force? What about all the people imprisoned for not paying their taxes? She became a wealthy woman from her successful books, so she paid far more in than she ever took out. Her estate was valued at about a million dollars when she died in 1982. Her total receipts from social security $14,000.