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> extremely confused and can't separate philosophy/mysticism from empiricism/science. That's rather bold generalization form a single term.) Nevertheless I wou
by lngnmn 10y ago
> extremely confused and can't separate philosophy/mysticism from empiricism/science.
That's rather bold generalization form a single term.) Nevertheless I would argue that I could easily hold a discussion on various branches of Eastern philosophy and modern sciences.
My friend, awareness does not act, it exist. Other parts of the brain are responsible for actions. That is the point. Awareness is a process (processing of a sensory input, if you wish), one of many, not the whole.
Awareness cannot be objective (or subjective) - this notion is inapplicable. Are camera and microphone in your phone objective?
Observer is a metaphor used to give an oversimplified but familiar example.
In philosophy of the mind an observer emerges as an abstract entity when awareness augmented with a language is directed toward itself in the process of verbalized introspection. A human language is a prerequisite for having such a notion. That is why modern science has no evidence that animals posses self-awareness.
That "mind" or "I" or "myself" with which the verbalized introspection has been labeled what it think it sees is mere a linguistic construct. A label. A name for a reflection in the water of consciousness.
The notion of Brahman is applicable to the nature of the universe and has nothing to do with awareness. The different notion - Atman - is used to convey fundamental idea, that what the nature of a Man is no different from the nature of the Universe - Man is mere a "product" of the Universe. This is the meaning of famous upanishadic "Atman is Brahman" and "I am that".
There, perhaps, no subject other than what we call the philosophy of mind, on which the best minds of the humanity has been working since the beginning of time, and the ideas and notions they have developed, principles they have formulated still stands, even if they were realized as mere insights and intuitions.
As for feedback loops and emergent properties - these are everywhere in biology. No one argues against systems biology or development. A brain has been emerged dues to accumulation of feedback and selection on "useful" patterns
(I am oversimplifying for the sake of the argument). There is nothing to talk about.
Actually, what is really ridiculous is trying to put in a few sentences the findings of evolutionary psychology, the notions of social and cultural conditioning, that a language is conditioned by a sensory experience (and hence by physical shared environment - this is how we got these apriori notions of time and space, described by Kant).
What we call the mind is mere conditioning and memories of experiences, encoded using the very same conditioned linguistic forms and emotions (should I explain in what sense emotions are conditioned by the shared environment?).
I think you should take the Robert Wright's course and read a book or two on the subject before trying to piss on a wrong tree.
- armitron 10y agoI had a look at Robert Wright's course, it's irrelevant to this discussion but I will devote some time to it since I'm interested in its subject matter and have been for years. Thank you for suggesting it. I don't like to mix philosophy or mysticism with science. In both your posts, you are going back and forth between the two, mixing and matching, and while everything may make sense to you, it's not really helping when other minds come into play. It's far more productive I feel to talk from one or the other perspective, but not both. This was the major point of me disagreeing with your first post, and also that you seemed to dismiss "the process" itself. Surely the mind is not mere conditioning and memories of experiences, maybe you could get away talking like this with other Buddhists or mystics or Vedantic followers — and then they'd tell you that none of that really exists — but when talking with cyberneticists or system theorists you'll be laughed out of the room. And this is coming from someone who is very familiar with the first and well-versed in the second of these domains. You talk about the brain having "emerged" but this risks confusion when applied to the topic at hand. The brain may have emerged through evolution and natural selection, but it is not emerging right now. The mind is an emergent process altogether. The conditioning and memories that you talk about is really the "self-model", data, but not the process-in-execution itself. Maybe you will say that the mind emerges from said data and that therefore this sort of data is a pre-requisite. I could argue for or against this depending on day or phase of the moon, it's an interesting point. But it's erroneous I feel to identify the mind with said data. In deep sleep, there is no mind even though the brain is physically there and so are the memories and experiences and conditioning. The mind begins to emerge in dreams and is fully emergent in wakefulness. There is a clear distinction between data as stored in the brain and the process of becoming self-aware. Finally, there is plenty of evidence that certain animals possess self-awareness without possessing anything close to human language. Dolphins, some apes and birds (parrots and magpies). And again, all of this makes a lot of sense from a cybernetic perspective but it makes no sense whatsoever from your mystical/philosophical pov. Which is why it's a mistake to apply notions from the second to the first.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- lngnmn 10y ago