8 ms·

No need for speculation: you can open the Alexa app and play back your own queries, audio and all. There's even a help section titled, "How do I delete Alexa vo

by gordyf 10y ago

No need for speculation: you can open the Alexa app and play back your own queries, audio and all. There's even a help section titled, "How do I delete Alexa voice recordings", which reads: "You can delete specific voice recordings associated with your account by going to History in Settings in the Alexa App, drilling down for a specific entry, and then tapping the delete button. Or, you can delete all voice recordings associated with your account for each of your Alexa-enabled products, by selecting the applicable product at the Manage Your Content and Devices page at www.amazon.com/mycd or contacting customer service."

ajross 10y ago
Once more though: that's just the audio flagged as a "query" by Amazon and stored as such. What about other stuff that gets uploaded prior to NLP & validation? It's a serious question, and one that I think Amazon (and anyone else streaming audio to the cloud, Siri and Google Voice Search are only slightly less constrained) needs to have an answer for.
- gordyf 10y ago
  I think you may be making a distinction where none exists. Can you give me an example of what "other stuff" you're referring to? (Disclosure: I worked at Amazon on a related product.)
  - chipperyman573 10y ago
    If I have a conversation about coffee without once saying the word Alexa, will that conversation be stored by Amazon
    - ajross 10y ago
      Or if you have a conversation about coffee[1] including the word Alexa[2], but that cannot be parsed or validated as a "query" and produces no response from the device, does that audio get stored somewhere? Could it be captured in transit by other actors? Seems like an important distinction to me. [1] Or, y'know, about some subject more subpoenable or privacy-sensitive. [2] Or, y'know, not including the word Alexa but triggering the on-device recognition anyway. "Alex, uh, here's your payment for murder."
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - hillz 10y ago
        Sentences after the 'Alexa' key word are still recorded as un-identified questions that you can view in the Alexa app. Source: bought mom one, have used it.
    - notheguyouthink 10y ago
      According to others in the thread (i know nothing of this), it sounds like that is easily verifiable though, and not done. Ie, it sounds like they've monitored the outbound traffic of the device and it only sends Alexa... requests. It's possible that they keep a rolling buffer of all audio in the device though. There could be legitimate reason to hold onto such a window of audio. Would make for an interesting discovery.
      - Johnny555 10y ago
        What would be the legitimate reason to do so? Queries are always preceded by the keyword, so what legitimate reason would there be to record and store audio before the keyword?
        evilduck 10y ago
        I could imagine trying to capture and analyze at least a few words leading up to the trigger word of 'Alexa' to help make it more accurate. Even if the trigger word is Alexa, different languages, dialects, and slang might vary quite a bit. Some significant portion of people might use "Yo, Alexa...", vs "Hey Alexa...", vs. <a second or two pause> "Alexa...". I'm sure someone with a spouse or child named "Alex", "Alexander", "Alexandra" and so on might also trigger it by accident a bunch, e.g. "Alex, uh, who called?". Matching all of those trigger patterns would help filter out false positive matches, or take false negatives and refine them so more people can use the product with their own language style and be less frustrated.
        krallja 10y ago
        You can also configure the wake word as "Echo" or "Amazon" if Alexa is too ambiguous.
        avar 10y ago
        "What's the weather going to be like tomorrow, Alexa?"
        10y ago
    - gordyf 10y ago
      As others are posting here, the Echo is obvious about when it's recording: when the onboard hardware detects the wake-word, the LED rings light up blue and it begins streaming audio to Amazon until the Alexa service determines that the query has been completed or that there's nothing more to hear. People have monitored the network activity of their Echoes to verify this (and if you don't trust that, well, nothing I say will help you.) Sometimes the wake-word detection is mistakenly triggered and some unrelated audio gets streamed to Amazon, but the LEDs will still light up, and at times it'll even reply to a query that was never intended (I've been watching TV when my Echo will hear something and reply that I don't have any timers set, or whatever) but these recordings would still be covered by the link I pasted in the help text above. I think a lot of the HN paranoia about these devices is overblown. All of this functionality is provided by devices that you already own, including hardware wake-word detection on all modern smartphones, which I assume everyone here carries around everywhere and recharges daily without much concern.
      - zeta0134 10y ago
        I think there's a stronger mental disconnect here in a lot of consumers. Detecting the wake word is easy to do locally; doing natural language processing on the resulting audio recording is what must be offloaded to Amazon, as it's too computationally heavy to perform that process locally. Because the wake word is able to be processed offline, there is no need for the Echo device to record and transmit audio all the time. While the hardware is physically capable of doing this (and therefore, it will never be possible to fully eliminate doubt in the device's security) it would not be in Amazon's or the customer's best interest. Talk about a waste of resources, and a privacy nightmare!
        eclipxe 10y ago
        Exactly. There is no cost model that accounts for the device constantly streaming realtime audio data to Amazon. Just doesn't make sense.
        visarga 10y ago
        But it could still record background audio and transmit it later to Amazon, when an Alexa query is triggered. How do we know that it doesn't do that? Has anyone opened up the data stream to check what audio it contains?
  - jon-wood 10y ago
    I think they're talking about the distinction between the actual audio, which can be listened to and deleted from the Alexa app, and the processed data breaking it down into a (potential) query, possibly sitting nowhere but some query logs for underlying services.
- mcphage 10y ago
  > What about other stuff that gets uploaded prior to NLP & validation? I would be very surprised if Amazon sends everything up to the cloud; it would be very expensive to do so. Looking for "Alexa" in the audio is done locally, and probably triggers recording then.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
    I don't think the expensive part is accurate. Voice sounds okay using the G.729 VOIP codec at 8kbps. Capturing and storing that amount of data, for every Echo user, 24 hrs a day would be trivial for company the size of Amazon. As others have pointed out, network monitoring has shown the Echo only transmits after it's heard the wake-word, so it would appear Amazon doesn't capture everything.
    - icebraining 10y ago
      Hypothetically, if I was tasked with recording everything, I'd just add an internal buffer and then ship chunks of that data along with the regular queries.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
        Indeed, yes, that'd be the way to do it. You could claim the post-wake-word data is recorded at a higher bit rate than it actually is, thereby accounting for the larger than necessary data-transfer. I won't be surprised if we find out this is happening. They'll probably call it a "bug", fix it in an OTA, but then accidentally regress 6 months later.
        Johnny555 10y ago
        I won't be surprised if we find out this is happening. They'll probably call it a "bug", fix it in an OTA, but then accidentally regress 6 months later. I'd be very surprised if this is happening -- Amazon knows people are watching, and it would erode trust with customers if it's found out that they are spying. I'd be much more concerned about whether or not my phone is spying on me, even if it says it's only listening if I say "Ok Google" or "Siri". It's much harder for me to see what traffic my phone is sending across the cellular network than to snoop Amazon Echo's wifi traffic. And phone malware (sometimes baked in by the manufacturer) is increasingly common. Since the Echo does not allow user-installed Apps, at least it's less vulnerable to malware.
- happynewyear 10y ago
  It's a great question. Reminds me of Uber and its new policy of monitoring location of customers few minutes after drop off "to improve service". It is also true that if Alexa was listening in on conversations so as to have "social conversation context" for "improved processing of commands" ... well.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- ben174 10y ago
  The 'Alexa' voice recognition is done on the client, not on the server. Once the trigger word has been spoken, the audio data begins streaming to the server.
  - cma 10y ago
    They carefully worded it so that while it is true it only starts transmitting when there is a query, it doesn't stop transmitting afterwards. It could continue recording and sending to the server for the rest of the day, not just the query (just kidding.. I hope).

by gordyf 10y ago

ajross 10y ago

Once more though: that's just the audio flagged as a "query" by Amazon and stored as such. What about other stuff that gets uploaded prior to NLP & validation? It's a serious question, and one that I think Amazon (and anyone else streaming audio to the cloud, Siri and Google Voice Search are only slightly less constrained) needs to have an answer for.

gordyf 10y ago
I think you may be making a distinction where none exists. Can you give me an example of what "other stuff" you're referring to? (Disclosure: I worked at Amazon on a related product.)
- chipperyman573 10y ago
  If I have a conversation about coffee without once saying the word Alexa, will that conversation be stored by Amazon
  - ajross 10y ago
    Or if you have a conversation about coffee[1] including the word Alexa[2], but that cannot be parsed or validated as a "query" and produces no response from the device, does that audio get stored somewhere? Could it be captured in transit by other actors? Seems like an important distinction to me. [1] Or, y'know, about some subject more subpoenable or privacy-sensitive. [2] Or, y'know, not including the word Alexa but triggering the on-device recognition anyway. "Alex, uh, here's your payment for murder."
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - hillz 10y ago
      Sentences after the 'Alexa' key word are still recorded as un-identified questions that you can view in the Alexa app. Source: bought mom one, have used it.
  - notheguyouthink 10y ago
    According to others in the thread (i know nothing of this), it sounds like that is easily verifiable though, and not done. Ie, it sounds like they've monitored the outbound traffic of the device and it only sends Alexa... requests. It's possible that they keep a rolling buffer of all audio in the device though. There could be legitimate reason to hold onto such a window of audio. Would make for an interesting discovery.
    - Johnny555 10y ago
      What would be the legitimate reason to do so? Queries are always preceded by the keyword, so what legitimate reason would there be to record and store audio before the keyword?
      - evilduck 10y ago
        I could imagine trying to capture and analyze at least a few words leading up to the trigger word of 'Alexa' to help make it more accurate. Even if the trigger word is Alexa, different languages, dialects, and slang might vary quite a bit. Some significant portion of people might use "Yo, Alexa...", vs "Hey Alexa...", vs. <a second or two pause> "Alexa...". I'm sure someone with a spouse or child named "Alex", "Alexander", "Alexandra" and so on might also trigger it by accident a bunch, e.g. "Alex, uh, who called?". Matching all of those trigger patterns would help filter out false positive matches, or take false negatives and refine them so more people can use the product with their own language style and be less frustrated.
        krallja 10y ago
        You can also configure the wake word as "Echo" or "Amazon" if Alexa is too ambiguous.
      - avar 10y ago
        "What's the weather going to be like tomorrow, Alexa?"
        10y ago
  - gordyf 10y ago
    As others are posting here, the Echo is obvious about when it's recording: when the onboard hardware detects the wake-word, the LED rings light up blue and it begins streaming audio to Amazon until the Alexa service determines that the query has been completed or that there's nothing more to hear. People have monitored the network activity of their Echoes to verify this (and if you don't trust that, well, nothing I say will help you.) Sometimes the wake-word detection is mistakenly triggered and some unrelated audio gets streamed to Amazon, but the LEDs will still light up, and at times it'll even reply to a query that was never intended (I've been watching TV when my Echo will hear something and reply that I don't have any timers set, or whatever) but these recordings would still be covered by the link I pasted in the help text above. I think a lot of the HN paranoia about these devices is overblown. All of this functionality is provided by devices that you already own, including hardware wake-word detection on all modern smartphones, which I assume everyone here carries around everywhere and recharges daily without much concern.
    - zeta0134 10y ago
      I think there's a stronger mental disconnect here in a lot of consumers. Detecting the wake word is easy to do locally; doing natural language processing on the resulting audio recording is what must be offloaded to Amazon, as it's too computationally heavy to perform that process locally. Because the wake word is able to be processed offline, there is no need for the Echo device to record and transmit audio all the time. While the hardware is physically capable of doing this (and therefore, it will never be possible to fully eliminate doubt in the device's security) it would not be in Amazon's or the customer's best interest. Talk about a waste of resources, and a privacy nightmare!
      - eclipxe 10y ago
        Exactly. There is no cost model that accounts for the device constantly streaming realtime audio data to Amazon. Just doesn't make sense.
        visarga 10y ago
        But it could still record background audio and transmit it later to Amazon, when an Alexa query is triggered. How do we know that it doesn't do that? Has anyone opened up the data stream to check what audio it contains?
- jon-wood 10y ago
  I think they're talking about the distinction between the actual audio, which can be listened to and deleted from the Alexa app, and the processed data breaking it down into a (potential) query, possibly sitting nowhere but some query logs for underlying services.
mcphage 10y ago
> What about other stuff that gets uploaded prior to NLP & validation? I would be very surprised if Amazon sends everything up to the cloud; it would be very expensive to do so. Looking for "Alexa" in the audio is done locally, and probably triggers recording then.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  I don't think the expensive part is accurate. Voice sounds okay using the G.729 VOIP codec at 8kbps. Capturing and storing that amount of data, for every Echo user, 24 hrs a day would be trivial for company the size of Amazon. As others have pointed out, network monitoring has shown the Echo only transmits after it's heard the wake-word, so it would appear Amazon doesn't capture everything.
  - icebraining 10y ago
    Hypothetically, if I was tasked with recording everything, I'd just add an internal buffer and then ship chunks of that data along with the regular queries.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
      Indeed, yes, that'd be the way to do it. You could claim the post-wake-word data is recorded at a higher bit rate than it actually is, thereby accounting for the larger than necessary data-transfer. I won't be surprised if we find out this is happening. They'll probably call it a "bug", fix it in an OTA, but then accidentally regress 6 months later.
      - Johnny555 10y ago
        I won't be surprised if we find out this is happening. They'll probably call it a "bug", fix it in an OTA, but then accidentally regress 6 months later. I'd be very surprised if this is happening -- Amazon knows people are watching, and it would erode trust with customers if it's found out that they are spying. I'd be much more concerned about whether or not my phone is spying on me, even if it says it's only listening if I say "Ok Google" or "Siri". It's much harder for me to see what traffic my phone is sending across the cellular network than to snoop Amazon Echo's wifi traffic. And phone malware (sometimes baked in by the manufacturer) is increasingly common. Since the Echo does not allow user-installed Apps, at least it's less vulnerable to malware.
happynewyear 10y ago
It's a great question. Reminds me of Uber and its new policy of monitoring location of customers few minutes after drop off "to improve service". It is also true that if Alexa was listening in on conversations so as to have "social conversation context" for "improved processing of commands" ... well.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
ben174 10y ago
The 'Alexa' voice recognition is done on the client, not on the server. Once the trigger word has been spoken, the audio data begins streaming to the server.
- cma 10y ago
  They carefully worded it so that while it is true it only starts transmitting when there is a query, it doesn't stop transmitting afterwards. It could continue recording and sending to the server for the rest of the day, not just the query (just kidding.. I hope).