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Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you

by hsitz 10y ago

Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o considering the contradictions you mentioned). But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register), and your tip is not tied to quality of service at all (and very often there isn't even any actual service, other than taking of order and preparation of food). As an older person this strikes me as bizarre; grew up in atmosphere where tips were always after meal and explicitly tied to quality of service.

Anasufovic 10y ago
I'd definitely am curious as to the impact on tips when it's expected upfront like that.
rlanday 10y ago
Nothing makes me feel like a sucker more than tipping before service is rendered, and then getting bad service!
dragonwriter 10y ago
I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants; it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1] [0] e.g., http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-casual-eateries/ http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-amounts-at-fast-casual-restaurants-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-...
- jghn 10y ago
  You're absolutely right however I'd argue that the presence of that tip line there leads people to feel bad and leave something there, which starts the feedback loop going to the point where it is/will be expected
  - seangrogg 10y ago
    At that point it is just the psychological impact you allow suggestions to have on you. One could probably make an "employee-owned" store (WinCo, Trader Joes) with lovely staff and get away with doing this to sweeten the pot for employees.
    - hsitz 10y ago
      You say "just" the psychological impact. Which is of course true, but I would leave out the "just" and emphasize that, yes, this is all about psychological impact. I go to these kind of POS restaurants/coffeshops all the time, and I can't recall one where it didn't have a tip screen. I know of several that are also set up so that "no tip" is not even one of the options, the only easy options you have are to select 10%, 15%, 20%, and if you want to leave no tip you have to select 'custom' and then set it to 0.00. This is all about psychological impact. RE psychological impact: It has often crossed my mind, but I have never investigated, whether the employee on the other side of the POS screen sees whether I have entered a tip or not after I click 'DONE' and the screen is swiveled back around. My decisions are mostly based on thinking they can see this, and I would be less likely to leave a tip, or more likely to leave smaller tip, if I knew that they don't see this info.
      - jghn 10y ago
        If you try hard you can make it so they don't see it but usually they will. When I see people click through far enough to get to that point they almost universally have left 0% which IMO speaks to that psychological impact. They don't want to leave anything but feel bad not doing so. Me? I'm a sucker for those things. For one I admit that I don't want to seem like a cheapo, and then on top of it it's often at most a buck or two that we're talking about, not a big deal. So I fall for the scam and click the button that leaves money.
tnecniv 10y ago
> But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register) I've never seen this, other than at places where I'm not being waited on. At these, I don't tip unless I am particularly satisfied by the place.

by hsitz 10y ago

Anasufovic 10y ago

I'd definitely am curious as to the impact on tips when it's expected upfront like that.

rlanday 10y ago

Nothing makes me feel like a sucker more than tipping before service is rendered, and then getting bad service!

dragonwriter 10y ago

I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants; it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1] [0] e.g., http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-casual-eateries/ http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-amounts-at-fast-casual-restaurants-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-...

jghn 10y ago
You're absolutely right however I'd argue that the presence of that tip line there leads people to feel bad and leave something there, which starts the feedback loop going to the point where it is/will be expected
- seangrogg 10y ago
  At that point it is just the psychological impact you allow suggestions to have on you. One could probably make an "employee-owned" store (WinCo, Trader Joes) with lovely staff and get away with doing this to sweeten the pot for employees.
  - hsitz 10y ago
    You say "just" the psychological impact. Which is of course true, but I would leave out the "just" and emphasize that, yes, this is all about psychological impact. I go to these kind of POS restaurants/coffeshops all the time, and I can't recall one where it didn't have a tip screen. I know of several that are also set up so that "no tip" is not even one of the options, the only easy options you have are to select 10%, 15%, 20%, and if you want to leave no tip you have to select 'custom' and then set it to 0.00. This is all about psychological impact. RE psychological impact: It has often crossed my mind, but I have never investigated, whether the employee on the other side of the POS screen sees whether I have entered a tip or not after I click 'DONE' and the screen is swiveled back around. My decisions are mostly based on thinking they can see this, and I would be less likely to leave a tip, or more likely to leave smaller tip, if I knew that they don't see this info.
    - jghn 10y ago
      If you try hard you can make it so they don't see it but usually they will. When I see people click through far enough to get to that point they almost universally have left 0% which IMO speaks to that psychological impact. They don't want to leave anything but feel bad not doing so. Me? I'm a sucker for those things. For one I admit that I don't want to seem like a cheapo, and then on top of it it's often at most a buck or two that we're talking about, not a big deal. So I fall for the scam and click the button that leaves money.

tnecniv 10y ago

> But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register) I've never seen this, other than at places where I'm not being waited on. At these, I don't tip unless I am particularly satisfied by the place.