6 ms·

Tipping is also extremely inconsistent in at least three ways. One is the idea of a percentage: how does that make any sense? When I go out for a rare nice di

Tipping is also extremely inconsistent in at least three ways. One is the idea of a percentage: how does that make any sense? When I go out for a rare nice dinner and the tip alone ends up being $20 or so, I ask myself: did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20? Of course not, and yet somehow it would look weird to pay $40 for a $20 meal with tip, for the same service? Another inconsistency is where to tip. Yes, tip at restaurants but what about the zillion other places that sometimes explicitly and often implicitly expect tips? Do we have to slip a dollar to just about everyone in case they expect a tip? And finally, the inconsistency in who tips. Sometimes I tip generously because I assume there will be other people who just don’t tip at all, or tip poorly, and I feel some obligation to balance the pot. I don’t know why, it just seems like the right thing. It would make a lot more sense to end all these charades and just show exact prices. (While we’re at it, let’s make sure utility companies do the same, up front, no fees.)

throwaway2016a 10y ago
> One is the idea of a percentage I've always found this odd too. Say for a special occasion I decide to go to a high end steakhouse... mid-range bottle of wine, two nice steaks, a'la cart sides, appetizer, and desert we're at $500. That's $100 at 20%. Did that person really do more work than the person I tipped $10 at Chili's (an american casual family restaurant)? > Another inconsistency is where to tip I usually end up spending 20 minutes Googling "what to tip _______" before going anywhere or getting an deliveries.
- ydt 10y ago
  Here's the thing. I worked in the restaurant business in various capacities all through college. As a cash transaction, it will come as no surprise that a lot of tips go unreported as income. From time to time the IRS will decide the reported income from a restaurant seems low and audit the staff. It was generally understood that if you had reported 10% of your sales as a server/bartender as tip income you'd be ok. If not you were in trouble (and this happened to people I know). So if you tip $20 on a $500 dollar tab because it's the same amount of work as $100 dollar tab. your server will most likely still claim $50 in income and be at about break even once the taxes are paid on it.
  - bkor 10y ago
    This still doesn't explain why it should be a percentage other than that everyone assumes a percentage.
    - ydt 10y ago
      You're right. I didn't say it did. I was just trying to give some insight into how it works for people that have maybe never worked for tips. I am of two minds about tipping. As a customer it would be nice if these jobs provided a decent base pay + benefits and everything was just priced into the meal. On the other hand I would have hated this when I worked for tips, as I hustled and provided good service which allowed me to make a lot more than co-workers who didn't.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        >hustled This word is telling. If I go out to dinner I'd really prefer to not be hustled. hus·tle ˈhəsəl/ verb 1. force (someone) to move hurriedly or unceremoniously in a specified direction. 2. North Americaninformal obtain by forceful action or persuasion. 3. North Americaninformal engage in prostitution.
  - ensignavenger 10y ago
    How would they be "in trouble"? You mean the IRS is going to ask them scary questions? Or does the IRS really go around fining people with no more evidence than "Well, we think that maybe you earned more in tips than you reported, because someone else reported that they earned more..." Any CPAs or tax attorneys care to share their experiences? I can't see how the latter could be legal.
- jackptfh 10y ago
  Yes, on average the server at the high end restaurant did substantially more work, and they performed it more expertly. they were better able to answer questions and offer suggestions (including off-menu changes that might help you). They timed your meal for your enjoyment rather than for turnover. They made sure you had fresh silverware, a clean table, and a full glass. They coordinated your bar, wine, and food orders so appropriate items were presented at the appropriate time. They verified the kitchen gave them correct dishes before they brought them to you. They devoted a lot of energy into ensuring that a small number of guests have a great experience. They're able to earn decent livings because they are at the top of their field. The folks at chili's are granted no autonomy. Their goal is to turn the table quickly, with the least effort; and to do this with the least skilled staff. They work hard, but their goal is to serve a large number of guests with a tolerable experience, not a great one. Yes, they bring food and drink, but the focus is on throughput, not on quality. It's similar to the difference between code written by a low bid contractor versus a talented on-site team. If you want anything unusual or if you care about quality and the experience, you'll greatly prefer the on site staff. Even if some execs might not understand why you can't offshore 100% of the work.
  - nolite 10y ago
    All of these things you describe, fall under what I consider "their job"
    - rlanday 10y ago
      Your point being?
    - jghn 10y ago
      and part of the compensation package associated with "their job" is tipping.
    - anamoulous 10y ago
      So assume that if they (and the back of the house, in the event of tip pooling) were paid a meaningful base wage it would have cost 20% more for the experience of dining at the restaurant. Do a calculation and add that to the check, because that's what you would be paying if we didn't have tip culture.
- saint_fiasco 10y ago
  It could be an incentive. Some customers are more valuable than others and using percentages means the employees will be extra nice to high-value customers and not waste too much time on the low-value customers. Of course they should be nice to everyone, but if it is a busy day and they have to choose, the restaurant owners would prefer that they prioritize the ones who spend more.
hsitz 10y ago
Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o considering the contradictions you mentioned). But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register), and your tip is not tied to quality of service at all (and very often there isn't even any actual service, other than taking of order and preparation of food). As an older person this strikes me as bizarre; grew up in atmosphere where tips were always after meal and explicitly tied to quality of service.
- Anasufovic 10y ago
  I'd definitely am curious as to the impact on tips when it's expected upfront like that.
- rlanday 10y ago
  Nothing makes me feel like a sucker more than tipping before service is rendered, and then getting bad service!
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants; it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1] [0] e.g., http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-casual-eateries/ http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-amounts-at-fast-casual-restaurants-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-...
  - jghn 10y ago
cmurf 10y ago
Try going to a foreign country, almost any, and have this conversation. They'll look at you like you've gone insane, really. Every conversation I've had with a foreigner about this and they think American's are batshit when it comes to the tipping strategy and how much noodle time and effort we spend on it. Basically it's a type of freeloading. The business manager is dumping off their decision making, verbal and monetary feedback to their employee, onto the customer as if we're the employer (in part). Which is just stupid. It doesn't really give the proper feedback in any reliable sense compared to even a mediocre manager.
- BurningFrog 10y ago
  I've talked to several people from my home country who won't visit the US because they don't want to deal with the social trauma of deciding who to tip when and why. Someone should look into how much this is costing the US tourism industry. > The business manager is dumping off their decision making The individual business manager is powerless about this. It's an ingrained national culture.
  - daveFNbuck 10y ago
    > The individual business manager is powerless about this. It's an ingrained national culture. I've been to restaurants that clearly advertise that tips are not accepted and this has already been factored into pricing and wages. I never try to tip when I go to such a place.
  - cmurf 10y ago
    I think it's overwhelmingly a unidirectional expectation. Tippers feel like they ought to tip more than they'd ever defend tipping as a concept. The economic evaluation pretty much shows most people tip the same whether they receive good, average, or poor service. It takes exceptionally poor service to get enough people to lower their tip that the waiter recognizes the negative feedback, and there's probably yet another line below that where they decide to alter their behavior. And in the meantime it negatively reflects on the business overall. Worse though, business managers/owners are responsible for programming their point of sales systems to include tip lines for employees who definitely are not wait staff and thus are subject to the normal minimum wage, not the lower tipped employee minimum wage. So it really is business managers who are stiffing their customers with this responsibility and the ensuing behavior. California for some time now doesn't distinguish in their minimum wage between job types; no waiter there is making $2 an hour or whatever it used to be 20 years ago.
BurningFrog 10y ago
It makes some sense in that high end restaurants employ high end servers, who has more and better skills than Olive Gardeners, so they command a higher wage.
daveFNbuck 10y ago
> did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20? This question applies to the bill too.
elastic_church 10y ago
And don't forget the entire lower class of super-important minimum wage earners who collectively have disdain for minorities that don't tip as high. The insanity is amusing just typing it out, amongst other commenters talking about how strange America seems from other countries.
- gman2345 10y ago
  I am a white male, but speak with a heavy accent despite living in US for over a decade. One time a server lectured me about tipping right before leaving the bill.
  - oxide 10y ago
    spend a couple years getting stiffed by people with heavy accents, you'll start lecturing too. keep in mind these people don't earn a living wage, they live off of tips.
pasbesoin 10y ago
It also, to some extent, favors appearance over service. Somehow, this seems to speak significantly to life in the U.S. Of course, attractiveness is favored, everywhere. But in the U.S., we make it central to career success -- perhaps a bit more and in a wider range of roles than elsewhere in the world. And we often fool ourselves, favoring physical appearance over reciprocity.

throwaway2016a 10y ago

> One is the idea of a percentage I've always found this odd too. Say for a special occasion I decide to go to a high end steakhouse... mid-range bottle of wine, two nice steaks, a'la cart sides, appetizer, and desert we're at $500. That's $100 at 20%. Did that person really do more work than the person I tipped $10 at Chili's (an american casual family restaurant)? > Another inconsistency is where to tip I usually end up spending 20 minutes Googling "what to tip _______" before going anywhere or getting an deliveries.

ydt 10y ago
Here's the thing. I worked in the restaurant business in various capacities all through college. As a cash transaction, it will come as no surprise that a lot of tips go unreported as income. From time to time the IRS will decide the reported income from a restaurant seems low and audit the staff. It was generally understood that if you had reported 10% of your sales as a server/bartender as tip income you'd be ok. If not you were in trouble (and this happened to people I know). So if you tip $20 on a $500 dollar tab because it's the same amount of work as $100 dollar tab. your server will most likely still claim $50 in income and be at about break even once the taxes are paid on it.
- bkor 10y ago
  This still doesn't explain why it should be a percentage other than that everyone assumes a percentage.
  - ydt 10y ago
    You're right. I didn't say it did. I was just trying to give some insight into how it works for people that have maybe never worked for tips. I am of two minds about tipping. As a customer it would be nice if these jobs provided a decent base pay + benefits and everything was just priced into the meal. On the other hand I would have hated this when I worked for tips, as I hustled and provided good service which allowed me to make a lot more than co-workers who didn't.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      >hustled This word is telling. If I go out to dinner I'd really prefer to not be hustled. hus·tle ˈhəsəl/ verb 1. force (someone) to move hurriedly or unceremoniously in a specified direction. 2. North Americaninformal obtain by forceful action or persuasion. 3. North Americaninformal engage in prostitution.
- ensignavenger 10y ago
  How would they be "in trouble"? You mean the IRS is going to ask them scary questions? Or does the IRS really go around fining people with no more evidence than "Well, we think that maybe you earned more in tips than you reported, because someone else reported that they earned more..." Any CPAs or tax attorneys care to share their experiences? I can't see how the latter could be legal.
jackptfh 10y ago
Yes, on average the server at the high end restaurant did substantially more work, and they performed it more expertly. they were better able to answer questions and offer suggestions (including off-menu changes that might help you). They timed your meal for your enjoyment rather than for turnover. They made sure you had fresh silverware, a clean table, and a full glass. They coordinated your bar, wine, and food orders so appropriate items were presented at the appropriate time. They verified the kitchen gave them correct dishes before they brought them to you. They devoted a lot of energy into ensuring that a small number of guests have a great experience. They're able to earn decent livings because they are at the top of their field. The folks at chili's are granted no autonomy. Their goal is to turn the table quickly, with the least effort; and to do this with the least skilled staff. They work hard, but their goal is to serve a large number of guests with a tolerable experience, not a great one. Yes, they bring food and drink, but the focus is on throughput, not on quality. It's similar to the difference between code written by a low bid contractor versus a talented on-site team. If you want anything unusual or if you care about quality and the experience, you'll greatly prefer the on site staff. Even if some execs might not understand why you can't offshore 100% of the work.
- nolite 10y ago
  All of these things you describe, fall under what I consider "their job"
  - rlanday 10y ago
    Your point being?
  - jghn 10y ago
    and part of the compensation package associated with "their job" is tipping.
  - anamoulous 10y ago
    So assume that if they (and the back of the house, in the event of tip pooling) were paid a meaningful base wage it would have cost 20% more for the experience of dining at the restaurant. Do a calculation and add that to the check, because that's what you would be paying if we didn't have tip culture.
saint_fiasco 10y ago
It could be an incentive. Some customers are more valuable than others and using percentages means the employees will be extra nice to high-value customers and not waste too much time on the low-value customers. Of course they should be nice to everyone, but if it is a busy day and they have to choose, the restaurant owners would prefer that they prioritize the ones who spend more.

hsitz 10y ago

Yes. Another inconsistency involves the point in time at which a tip is expected. Historically tips came after the meal (or other service), and in theory you would tip well if you were happy with service, and badly or not at all if you were unhappy. In itself that made a little bit of sense (w/o considering the contradictions you mentioned). But nowadays you're often expected to tip at beginning of meal (i.e., when you order and pay at register), and your tip is not tied to quality of service at all (and very often there isn't even any actual service, other than taking of order and preparation of food). As an older person this strikes me as bizarre; grew up in atmosphere where tips were always after meal and explicitly tied to quality of service.

Anasufovic 10y ago
I'd definitely am curious as to the impact on tips when it's expected upfront like that.
rlanday 10y ago
Nothing makes me feel like a sucker more than tipping before service is rendered, and then getting bad service!
dragonwriter 10y ago
I think that it's a mistake to think that because all POS systems used at restaurants support tips and you interact with that system up front at fast casual restaurants, therefore a tip is expected up front at those restaurants; it's generally not (and I've even seen some such places that use touchpad rather than write-on-reciept entry for tips pre-select "no tip"); virtually every source I've seen recommends that, if you tip at all at such places, you carry cash and tipping after service at such places [0]. And tipping at fast casual restaurants is far from a universal norm in the US. [1] [0] e.g., http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-casual-eateries/ http://vegasseven.com/2016/03/16/really-need-leave-tip-fast-... [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-amounts-at-fast-casual-restaurants-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/322702/consumer-tipping-...
- jghn 10y ago

cmurf 10y ago

Try going to a foreign country, almost any, and have this conversation. They'll look at you like you've gone insane, really. Every conversation I've had with a foreigner about this and they think American's are batshit when it comes to the tipping strategy and how much noodle time and effort we spend on it. Basically it's a type of freeloading. The business manager is dumping off their decision making, verbal and monetary feedback to their employee, onto the customer as if we're the employer (in part). Which is just stupid. It doesn't really give the proper feedback in any reliable sense compared to even a mediocre manager.

BurningFrog 10y ago
I've talked to several people from my home country who won't visit the US because they don't want to deal with the social trauma of deciding who to tip when and why. Someone should look into how much this is costing the US tourism industry. > The business manager is dumping off their decision making The individual business manager is powerless about this. It's an ingrained national culture.
- daveFNbuck 10y ago
  > The individual business manager is powerless about this. It's an ingrained national culture. I've been to restaurants that clearly advertise that tips are not accepted and this has already been factored into pricing and wages. I never try to tip when I go to such a place.
- cmurf 10y ago
  I think it's overwhelmingly a unidirectional expectation. Tippers feel like they ought to tip more than they'd ever defend tipping as a concept. The economic evaluation pretty much shows most people tip the same whether they receive good, average, or poor service. It takes exceptionally poor service to get enough people to lower their tip that the waiter recognizes the negative feedback, and there's probably yet another line below that where they decide to alter their behavior. And in the meantime it negatively reflects on the business overall. Worse though, business managers/owners are responsible for programming their point of sales systems to include tip lines for employees who definitely are not wait staff and thus are subject to the normal minimum wage, not the lower tipped employee minimum wage. So it really is business managers who are stiffing their customers with this responsibility and the ensuing behavior. California for some time now doesn't distinguish in their minimum wage between job types; no waiter there is making $2 an hour or whatever it used to be 20 years ago.

BurningFrog 10y ago

It makes some sense in that high end restaurants employ high end servers, who has more and better skills than Olive Gardeners, so they command a higher wage.

daveFNbuck 10y ago

> did this person/restaurant really do any more than the server of the last entire meal that cost $20? This question applies to the bill too.

elastic_church 10y ago

And don't forget the entire lower class of super-important minimum wage earners who collectively have disdain for minorities that don't tip as high. The insanity is amusing just typing it out, amongst other commenters talking about how strange America seems from other countries.

gman2345 10y ago
I am a white male, but speak with a heavy accent despite living in US for over a decade. One time a server lectured me about tipping right before leaving the bill.
- oxide 10y ago
  spend a couple years getting stiffed by people with heavy accents, you'll start lecturing too. keep in mind these people don't earn a living wage, they live off of tips.

pasbesoin 10y ago

It also, to some extent, favors appearance over service. Somehow, this seems to speak significantly to life in the U.S. Of course, attractiveness is favored, everywhere. But in the U.S., we make it central to career success -- perhaps a bit more and in a wider range of roles than elsewhere in the world. And we often fool ourselves, favoring physical appearance over reciprocity.