5 ms·

> When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feelin

by tjic 10y ago

> When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this. So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals? Because it's exactly the same thing.

hx87 10y ago
> So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals? Do white collar professionals always expect to get a 20% bonus, no matter how well the company does?
nickez 10y ago
Except it's not.. the requirements for getting a bonus should be well defined
- brianwawok 10y ago
  Like the sales guys met some quota to determine company wide bonus even when you are an engineer with no influence on the sales guy?
imron 10y ago
No, because unlike a bonus, tips make up a significant portion of waitstaff's regular income. If they don't get their tips then maybe they don't make rent. It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expenses.
- vostok 10y ago
  > No, because unlike a bonus, tips make up a significant portion of waitstaff's regular income. Bonus makes up a significant portion of my regular income. I'm sure that's true for many other HN readers. > It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expense. In many cases, salary does not cover living expenses. In some instances bonuses can be 10x annual salary or more. Even if bonus is only 3x annual salary, you wouldn't say that salary covers living expenses as few people live on only 25% of their income.
  - niij 10y ago
    What employers are paying 3x and 10x salary in BONUSES? That's ludicrous. Also, if you're still working there and looking for fresh CS grad (Scala and Linux admin experience), my email is in my profile ;)
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      Financial services. New York State's budget situation is good or bad based on how good or bad bonuses are -- we're talking billions of dollars.
    - vostok 10y ago
      I'm including things like annual equity vesting in bonus. This is not uncommon for senior individual contributor positions in high paying tech and finance companies. It's also not uncommon for sales and senior management roles in all industries.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Is the bonus agreed upon before starting work or do you just work for pennies with the hope your employer is feeling generous at the end of the year?
    - vostok 10y ago
      It depends on what you were able to negotiate. You might have a guaranteed bonus in your first year, but you might rely on your employer's generosity in future years. In some cases, the bonuses may be based on certain targets, but those targets can become impossible to meet if your employer changes certain aspects of your situation. Even in the very unlikely event that you have an airtight contract, there are instances where the employer simply will not pay you. Legal action might be the only recourse in this situation. Sometimes you are required to go through arbitration and sometimes you have to sue.
- soneca 10y ago
  At some finance companies yearly bonuses are up to 20 monthly salaries.
  - Retric 10y ago
    That's just for tax avoidance, those 'bonuses' are mostly part of their contract.
    - vostok 10y ago
      > That's just for tax avoidance, those 'bonuses' Can you teach me how this tax avoidance works? It seems that I am missing out. Can you also specify the jurisdiction where this works? > mostly part of their contract I can think of many people whose bonuses are 3x or more their salary and who do not have a guaranteed minimum bonus or even a strict formula based bonus.
      - Retric 10y ago
        http://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/income-and-investments/bonus-time-how-bonuses-are-taxed-and-treated-by-the-irs-8003/ http://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/income-and-investments/bonus... 1. The Percentage Method The IRS specifies a flat “supplemental rate” of 25%, meaning that any supplemental wages (including bonuses) should be taxed in that amount. This works for bonuses up to 1 million. > I can think of many people Yes, there are plenty of idiots even in finance.
        ahh 10y ago
        This only affects the withholding of bonuses (the amount the IRS has you pre-pay as an estimate of taxes.) It does not affect the actual income tax on bonuses. (It's mostly a disadvantage. I get about 60-70% of my income in bonus and stock which is treated the same; it just means that, if I don't plan ahead for it, I end up with a surprise tax bill on April 15th. I do plan ahead, but the whole process is obnoxious.)
        10y ago
grecy 10y ago
> So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals? I do dislike them, because in a way they are the similar - you work really hard and you can't be sure if you will get it or not. It's the classic carrot on a stick motivation. > Because it's exactly the same thing. At most companies, how you get a bonus and how much it is is very clearly defined, and so in that regard, it's not similar to tipping at all.
- vostok 10y ago
  > At most companies, how you get a bonus and how much it is is very clearly defined, and so in that regard, it's not similar to tipping at all. I'm surprised that this has been your experience. In many cases, even cases where bonus is 3x annual salary, the bonus is "discretionary" and little is clearly defined.
gonzo41 10y ago
I worked in finance sales for about 3 years. Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking... I'm all for the no tipping and i happily work without a bonus. And i would expect other to as well. If you can't show up and be consistent in performance without a carrot then thats maybe not a great reflection of how you work and what you value.
- freddyc 10y ago
  > Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking... It's not just banking. I was horrified at some of the behavior I saw from the sales folks at a software start-up I worked for (including the CEO). As a sales lifer, our CEO came up with some pretty generous comp packages for the sales team that promoted bad behavior and short-term "wins" that the rest of us would be cleaning up for months.
  - vostok 10y ago
    I agree with this so much. Because of strict regulations, non-financial sales is infinitely worse than anything you'll see in finance.
- niij 10y ago
  My values at work are to get paid. I think that's why most people work instead of doing their hobbies all day. The carrot is payment. Nothing wrong with that.
- dorfsmay 10y ago
  Is your bonus based on predefined criteria? Do you negotiate it ahead of working, or after the fact? Does your skin colour, sex, how you dress affect your bonus?
  - vostok 10y ago
    > Does your skin colour, sex, how you dress affect your bonus? I am not aware of a study on this, but I would bet my annual income that those factors affect your bonus.
vostok 10y ago
As someone who relies on a bonus the way that waiters rely on tips, I dislike bonuses very much. It's possible that they're unavoidable given the volatile nature of business revenues and perhaps a system with no bonuses would result in lower total compensation.
commentzorro 10y ago
It's not really the same thing unless you're thinking of a different bonus than I am. The bonuses I get are typically a couple times a year after a long slog through a difficult or time sensitive part of a project. A server gets their tips probably about once an hour or so and the amount from one customer may differ with essentially the same service for another customer. Esentially random and arbitrary.
po 10y ago
Because it's exactly the same thing. A bonus is paid to you by your company (evaluated by your boss) and is more like profit sharing. A tip is paid directly by the customer. The customer has no way of knowing if you are being paid a living wage or not. They have different incentives if they are a regular or not. The waiter at a busy restaurant will see hundreds of customers a day, but the customer may only interact with this waiter once. The waiter understands the house systems and knows how to maximize tipping. These are all ways that the waiter has an information advantage and can wield it against the customer. Maximizing tipping and providing good service to everyone are seldom the same thing. People like to think that tipping puts the customer in power but it really just sets up the customer to be gamed. This aspect doesn't exist when we're talking about bonuses with your employer.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by tjic 10y ago

hx87 10y ago

> So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals? Do white collar professionals always expect to get a 20% bonus, no matter how well the company does?

nickez 10y ago

Except it's not.. the requirements for getting a bonus should be well defined

brianwawok 10y ago
Like the sales guys met some quota to determine company wide bonus even when you are an engineer with no influence on the sales guy?

imron 10y ago

No, because unlike a bonus, tips make up a significant portion of waitstaff's regular income. If they don't get their tips then maybe they don't make rent. It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expenses.

vostok 10y ago
> No, because unlike a bonus, tips make up a significant portion of waitstaff's regular income. Bonus makes up a significant portion of my regular income. I'm sure that's true for many other HN readers. > It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expense. In many cases, salary does not cover living expenses. In some instances bonuses can be 10x annual salary or more. Even if bonus is only 3x annual salary, you wouldn't say that salary covers living expenses as few people live on only 25% of their income.
- niij 10y ago
  What employers are paying 3x and 10x salary in BONUSES? That's ludicrous. Also, if you're still working there and looking for fresh CS grad (Scala and Linux admin experience), my email is in my profile ;)
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    Financial services. New York State's budget situation is good or bad based on how good or bad bonuses are -- we're talking billions of dollars.
  - vostok 10y ago
    I'm including things like annual equity vesting in bonus. This is not uncommon for senior individual contributor positions in high paying tech and finance companies. It's also not uncommon for sales and senior management roles in all industries.
- nommm-nommm 10y ago
  Is the bonus agreed upon before starting work or do you just work for pennies with the hope your employer is feeling generous at the end of the year?
  - vostok 10y ago
    It depends on what you were able to negotiate. You might have a guaranteed bonus in your first year, but you might rely on your employer's generosity in future years. In some cases, the bonuses may be based on certain targets, but those targets can become impossible to meet if your employer changes certain aspects of your situation. Even in the very unlikely event that you have an airtight contract, there are instances where the employer simply will not pay you. Legal action might be the only recourse in this situation. Sometimes you are required to go through arbitration and sometimes you have to sue.
soneca 10y ago
At some finance companies yearly bonuses are up to 20 monthly salaries.
- Retric 10y ago
  That's just for tax avoidance, those 'bonuses' are mostly part of their contract.
  - vostok 10y ago
    > That's just for tax avoidance, those 'bonuses' Can you teach me how this tax avoidance works? It seems that I am missing out. Can you also specify the jurisdiction where this works? > mostly part of their contract I can think of many people whose bonuses are 3x or more their salary and who do not have a guaranteed minimum bonus or even a strict formula based bonus.
    - Retric 10y ago
      http://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/income-and-investments/bonus-time-how-bonuses-are-taxed-and-treated-by-the-irs-8003/ http://blog.turbotax.intuit.com/income-and-investments/bonus... 1. The Percentage Method The IRS specifies a flat “supplemental rate” of 25%, meaning that any supplemental wages (including bonuses) should be taxed in that amount. This works for bonuses up to 1 million. > I can think of many people Yes, there are plenty of idiots even in finance.
      - ahh 10y ago
        This only affects the withholding of bonuses (the amount the IRS has you pre-pay as an estimate of taxes.) It does not affect the actual income tax on bonuses. (It's mostly a disadvantage. I get about 60-70% of my income in bonus and stock which is treated the same; it just means that, if I don't plan ahead for it, I end up with a surprise tax bill on April 15th. I do plan ahead, but the whole process is obnoxious.)
        10y ago

grecy 10y ago

> So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals? I do dislike them, because in a way they are the similar - you work really hard and you can't be sure if you will get it or not. It's the classic carrot on a stick motivation. > Because it's exactly the same thing. At most companies, how you get a bonus and how much it is is very clearly defined, and so in that regard, it's not similar to tipping at all.

vostok 10y ago
> At most companies, how you get a bonus and how much it is is very clearly defined, and so in that regard, it's not similar to tipping at all. I'm surprised that this has been your experience. In many cases, even cases where bonus is 3x annual salary, the bonus is "discretionary" and little is clearly defined.

gonzo41 10y ago

I worked in finance sales for about 3 years. Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking... I'm all for the no tipping and i happily work without a bonus. And i would expect other to as well. If you can't show up and be consistent in performance without a carrot then thats maybe not a great reflection of how you work and what you value.

freddyc 10y ago
> Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking... It's not just banking. I was horrified at some of the behavior I saw from the sales folks at a software start-up I worked for (including the CEO). As a sales lifer, our CEO came up with some pretty generous comp packages for the sales team that promoted bad behavior and short-term "wins" that the rest of us would be cleaning up for months.
- vostok 10y ago
  I agree with this so much. Because of strict regulations, non-financial sales is infinitely worse than anything you'll see in finance.
niij 10y ago
My values at work are to get paid. I think that's why most people work instead of doing their hobbies all day. The carrot is payment. Nothing wrong with that.
dorfsmay 10y ago
Is your bonus based on predefined criteria? Do you negotiate it ahead of working, or after the fact? Does your skin colour, sex, how you dress affect your bonus?
- vostok 10y ago
  > Does your skin colour, sex, how you dress affect your bonus? I am not aware of a study on this, but I would bet my annual income that those factors affect your bonus.

vostok 10y ago

As someone who relies on a bonus the way that waiters rely on tips, I dislike bonuses very much. It's possible that they're unavoidable given the volatile nature of business revenues and perhaps a system with no bonuses would result in lower total compensation.

commentzorro 10y ago

It's not really the same thing unless you're thinking of a different bonus than I am. The bonuses I get are typically a couple times a year after a long slog through a difficult or time sensitive part of a project. A server gets their tips probably about once an hour or so and the amount from one customer may differ with essentially the same service for another customer. Esentially random and arbitrary.

po 10y ago

Because it's exactly the same thing. A bonus is paid to you by your company (evaluated by your boss) and is more like profit sharing. A tip is paid directly by the customer. The customer has no way of knowing if you are being paid a living wage or not. They have different incentives if they are a regular or not. The waiter at a busy restaurant will see hundreds of customers a day, but the customer may only interact with this waiter once. The waiter understands the house systems and knows how to maximize tipping. These are all ways that the waiter has an information advantage and can wield it against the customer. Maximizing tipping and providing good service to everyone are seldom the same thing. People like to think that tipping puts the customer in power but it really just sets up the customer to be gamed. This aspect doesn't exist when we're talking about bonuses with your employer.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]