6 ms·

Even if these restaurants succeed, one risk is that 'no tipping' is just something that upscale restaurants in rich areas adopt because only they can afford to.

Even if these restaurants succeed, one risk is that 'no tipping' is just something that upscale restaurants in rich areas adopt because only they can afford to. Waiters in those restaurants are already compensated much better than your average waiter on a roadway diner -- this would literally only be helping the already better off.

huhtenberg 10y ago
In a lot of European countries restaurant tips are completely superficial and not expected, because wait stuff is already properly salaried. This includes all restaurant and cafe sizes.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  Yeah, but switching from a tipping to no-tipping equilibrium is probably hard. It's hard for a no-tipping restaurant to compete because the advertised menu prices will simply be higher, and you'd need consumers to mentally adjust all prices ~13% downward. "But some restaurants that adopted a no-tipping policy in 2016 have already revoked it: The New York restaurateurs David Chang, Tom Colicchio and Gabe Stulman all found it unworkable in the small-scale experiments they tried. “We continue to be supportive of the no-tipping movement,” Mr. Colicchio said, “but we’ve heard from our customers and team that they just aren’t ready for it yet.”" EDIT: It looks like just tacking on a service charge doesn't necessarily work either [1]. Probably diners hate being 'forced' to tip? These high-end restaurants are able to counteract that with their 'we're helping our waiters' newspaper PR blitz, by banding together, and because rich consumers are probably a bit less price-conscious. But I don't think that approach scales well at the lower end, where most wait staff actually work. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/momofuku-nishi-tipping_us_5692b9e8e4b0cad15e65343d http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/momofuku-nishi-tipping_u...
  - mahyarm 10y ago
    Advertise the lower prices and then add a flat 'staff service fee'. That way you can advertise the same prices with a similar tip difference.
    - sandGorgon 10y ago
      this is exactly that happens in india. it's called "service charge". you dont have to tip extra unless you really want to. Most restaurants in india clearly mention "we charge X % as service charge"
  - raverbashing 10y ago
    Restaurants need to calculate the equivalent "pre-tipping" price and leave it there for comparison
  - ragebol 10y ago
    When I was in the US, I also had to mentally adjust for the incomplete, tax-less, pricing at places. At the airport, I thought I could buy one last thing from my last few coins and bills of change. Quite a bummer at the register when it turned out it was actually more expensive. In Europe, sometimes prices even list both the VAT included and excluded prices.
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      What's the point of even having a price sticker if what's charged is more than what it says? Are some people exempt from the sales tax added? Is it dynamic depdending on the total amount charged?
      - ars 10y ago
        > What's the point of even having a price sticker if what's charged is more than what it says? It's because cities can have local sales tax, but advertising campaigns are national, or at last wider than a single city. So it's impossible to advertise the final price unless you micro-target a single area. Because of this it became the custom not to include tax on any prices. Unlike Europe there is no sales tax on a national level in the US (except for gasoline), so there is no tax that could be listed that applies to everyone. (And gasoline, it should be noted, is always advertised with all taxes included.) > Are some people exempt from the sales tax added? Yes, certain non profits do not pay sales tax. You can show the sales person a document with your tax free status and it won't be added. (You'll have to sign something attesting you will not use it for personal use, but only for the purposes of the non-profit.) > Is it dynamic depdending on the total amount charged? Only for some luxury items, where below a certain amount it's not considered a luxury and the tax is lower.
        alkonaut 10y ago
        > It's because cities can have local sales tax, but advertising campaigns are national, or at last wider than a single city. So it's impossible to advertise the final price unless you micro-target a single area. Yeah I was thinking about actual price tags on products or store shelves. Not billboards or tv ads etc. Doesn't explain why something would be marked $1.00 and charged $1.10 at the register (for example). I see how it could be advertised as $1.00 (+VAT) in a national ad though. > Yes, certain non profits do not pay sales tax. If 99% of the customers do pay the tax, wouldn't it help the customers most to mark the products and store shelves with what they will be charged?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- megablast 10y ago
  In Europe, or everywhere in the world except for the states?
Mao_Zedang 10y ago
Or you know just pay people minimum wage at least. I am not sure why certain service based jobs in America attract a tip and some do not.
- lil_cain 10y ago
  That article indicates that there are both tipped, and untipped minimum wages - i.e. tipped staff earn less at minimum wage.
  - waiseristy 10y ago
    In some states. Washington and a lot of the west coast states require all wages to be paid the same minimum. Not sure why the other states aren't pressured into doing the same.
  - Mao_Zedang 10y ago
    I understand this, what I dont understand is why.
  - iopq 10y ago
    If they earn less than minimum wage, the restaurant has to actually compensate them up to the minimum wage. They only earn a lower nominal wage because it's expected they get more from tips.
- Tempest1981 10y ago
  Presumably it A) benefits the worker, since they make extra if they provide good service, B) benefits the employer, because the worker is motivated to provide good service, and C) the service level is highly visible to the customer, who they interact closely with. I tip my hair cutter, but not my car mechanic, mostly due to C, I guess.
  - Fnoord 10y ago
    > Presumably it A) benefits the worker, since they make extra if they provide good service, B) benefits the employer, because the worker is motivated to provide good service, and C) the service level is highly visible to the customer, who they interact closely with. I tip my hair cutter, but not my car mechanic, mostly due to C, I guess. Interesting you should mention. I've seen evidence where this was tested in a local consumer right program. Someone would disconnect their spark plug, and then act as if they're an innocent driver who's car is broken. Or a piece of rubber of < 5 EUR was removed. Some car technicians were honest (mostly those who were part of trade organisation BOVAG), don't get me wrong. But some also deceived/lied about the problem, and made the customer pay insane prices to fix a simple problem. They also tested if technicians would fix an additional, obvious problem. One even fixed the problem, but made something else worse. In short, I'm not going to assume anymore that car technicians are honestly going to fix all the problems my car has.
argonaut 10y ago
As the article says, waiters at upscale restaurants are worse off in this system, because the system is now less unequal in their favor. If this became a trend at lower end restaurants, waiters that don't make much in tip would make more money (and more stably). So this actually has the opposite effect; it reduces inequality.
tomelders 10y ago
"The already better off"? Waiters and waitreses? That's one hell of a way to slice the pie. Where does this kind if thinking end? Do we start to divide up the upper and lower classes of homeless people because of the area they choose to be homeless in?
tomelders 10y ago
"The already better off"? Waiters and waitreses? That's one hell of a way to slice the pie. Where does this kind if thinking end? Do we start to divide up the upper and lower classes of homeless people because of the area they choose to be homeless in?
tomelders 10y ago
"The already better off"? Waiters and waitreses? That's one hell of a way to slice the pie. Where does this kind if thinking end? Do we start to divide up the upper and lower classes of homeless people because of the area they choose to be homeless in?

huhtenberg 10y ago

In a lot of European countries restaurant tips are completely superficial and not expected, because wait stuff is already properly salaried. This includes all restaurant and cafe sizes.

smallnamespace 10y ago
Yeah, but switching from a tipping to no-tipping equilibrium is probably hard. It's hard for a no-tipping restaurant to compete because the advertised menu prices will simply be higher, and you'd need consumers to mentally adjust all prices ~13% downward. "But some restaurants that adopted a no-tipping policy in 2016 have already revoked it: The New York restaurateurs David Chang, Tom Colicchio and Gabe Stulman all found it unworkable in the small-scale experiments they tried. “We continue to be supportive of the no-tipping movement,” Mr. Colicchio said, “but we’ve heard from our customers and team that they just aren’t ready for it yet.”" EDIT: It looks like just tacking on a service charge doesn't necessarily work either [1]. Probably diners hate being 'forced' to tip? These high-end restaurants are able to counteract that with their 'we're helping our waiters' newspaper PR blitz, by banding together, and because rich consumers are probably a bit less price-conscious. But I don't think that approach scales well at the lower end, where most wait staff actually work. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/momofuku-nishi-tipping_us_5692b9e8e4b0cad15e65343d http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/momofuku-nishi-tipping_u...
- mahyarm 10y ago
  Advertise the lower prices and then add a flat 'staff service fee'. That way you can advertise the same prices with a similar tip difference.
  - sandGorgon 10y ago
    this is exactly that happens in india. it's called "service charge". you dont have to tip extra unless you really want to. Most restaurants in india clearly mention "we charge X % as service charge"
- raverbashing 10y ago
  Restaurants need to calculate the equivalent "pre-tipping" price and leave it there for comparison
- ragebol 10y ago
  When I was in the US, I also had to mentally adjust for the incomplete, tax-less, pricing at places. At the airport, I thought I could buy one last thing from my last few coins and bills of change. Quite a bummer at the register when it turned out it was actually more expensive. In Europe, sometimes prices even list both the VAT included and excluded prices.
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    What's the point of even having a price sticker if what's charged is more than what it says? Are some people exempt from the sales tax added? Is it dynamic depdending on the total amount charged?
    - ars 10y ago
      > What's the point of even having a price sticker if what's charged is more than what it says? It's because cities can have local sales tax, but advertising campaigns are national, or at last wider than a single city. So it's impossible to advertise the final price unless you micro-target a single area. Because of this it became the custom not to include tax on any prices. Unlike Europe there is no sales tax on a national level in the US (except for gasoline), so there is no tax that could be listed that applies to everyone. (And gasoline, it should be noted, is always advertised with all taxes included.) > Are some people exempt from the sales tax added? Yes, certain non profits do not pay sales tax. You can show the sales person a document with your tax free status and it won't be added. (You'll have to sign something attesting you will not use it for personal use, but only for the purposes of the non-profit.) > Is it dynamic depdending on the total amount charged? Only for some luxury items, where below a certain amount it's not considered a luxury and the tax is lower.
      - alkonaut 10y ago
        > It's because cities can have local sales tax, but advertising campaigns are national, or at last wider than a single city. So it's impossible to advertise the final price unless you micro-target a single area. Yeah I was thinking about actual price tags on products or store shelves. Not billboards or tv ads etc. Doesn't explain why something would be marked $1.00 and charged $1.10 at the register (for example). I see how it could be advertised as $1.00 (+VAT) in a national ad though. > Yes, certain non profits do not pay sales tax. If 99% of the customers do pay the tax, wouldn't it help the customers most to mark the products and store shelves with what they will be charged?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
megablast 10y ago
In Europe, or everywhere in the world except for the states?

Mao_Zedang 10y ago

Or you know just pay people minimum wage at least. I am not sure why certain service based jobs in America attract a tip and some do not.

lil_cain 10y ago
That article indicates that there are both tipped, and untipped minimum wages - i.e. tipped staff earn less at minimum wage.
- waiseristy 10y ago
  In some states. Washington and a lot of the west coast states require all wages to be paid the same minimum. Not sure why the other states aren't pressured into doing the same.
- Mao_Zedang 10y ago
  I understand this, what I dont understand is why.
- iopq 10y ago
  If they earn less than minimum wage, the restaurant has to actually compensate them up to the minimum wage. They only earn a lower nominal wage because it's expected they get more from tips.
Tempest1981 10y ago
Presumably it A) benefits the worker, since they make extra if they provide good service, B) benefits the employer, because the worker is motivated to provide good service, and C) the service level is highly visible to the customer, who they interact closely with. I tip my hair cutter, but not my car mechanic, mostly due to C, I guess.
- Fnoord 10y ago
  > Presumably it A) benefits the worker, since they make extra if they provide good service, B) benefits the employer, because the worker is motivated to provide good service, and C) the service level is highly visible to the customer, who they interact closely with. I tip my hair cutter, but not my car mechanic, mostly due to C, I guess. Interesting you should mention. I've seen evidence where this was tested in a local consumer right program. Someone would disconnect their spark plug, and then act as if they're an innocent driver who's car is broken. Or a piece of rubber of < 5 EUR was removed. Some car technicians were honest (mostly those who were part of trade organisation BOVAG), don't get me wrong. But some also deceived/lied about the problem, and made the customer pay insane prices to fix a simple problem. They also tested if technicians would fix an additional, obvious problem. One even fixed the problem, but made something else worse. In short, I'm not going to assume anymore that car technicians are honestly going to fix all the problems my car has.

argonaut 10y ago

As the article says, waiters at upscale restaurants are worse off in this system, because the system is now less unequal in their favor. If this became a trend at lower end restaurants, waiters that don't make much in tip would make more money (and more stably). So this actually has the opposite effect; it reduces inequality.

tomelders 10y ago

"The already better off"? Waiters and waitreses? That's one hell of a way to slice the pie. Where does this kind if thinking end? Do we start to divide up the upper and lower classes of homeless people because of the area they choose to be homeless in?

tomelders 10y ago