5 ms·

>The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer. This

>The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer. This! Tipping is nothing but the employer passing the buck and guilting the customer.

radmuzom 10y ago
I find it very funny when people argue that increasing the minimum wage would increase costs for consumers (I don't necessarily disagree; in some cases it would, whether that is a bad thing is a different matter). I personally would pay a higher price, no tips and ensure that the workers serving can meet their basic needs via wages alone.
- vkjv 10y ago
  Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm
  - lostphilosopher 10y ago
    This idea of "making up the difference" comes up in every convo on tipping. The counter point is usually that it doesn't happen. (Debate ensues...) But even if it happened FOR SURE EVERY TIME. What an inefficient system! Rather than just paying the minimum wage up front, with predictable, projectable costs, businesses spend person hours on calculating tips, hours worked, per employee, etc. And then have to pay (potentially) widely varying amounts at the end of the cycle. I get that some customers and some servers like the practice of tipping. But why not require employers to pay (at least) the minimum wage, period. You could still tip if you want to, and an you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy, than the difference between rent and no-rent.
    - andrewflnr 10y ago
      you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy Isn't that where we started? I don't think that's stable. If some people get tips, the next tier of goodish servers is going to think they deserve tips, until you end up where we are now.
      - srinathrajaram 10y ago
        You can start there and stay there. This does not escalate like you assume. The rest of the world works just fine with this system. I suspect that the escalation in the US has something to do with employers getting greedy and trying to reduce wages to factor in tips. I don't have any evidence to back this up.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - thoughtsimple 10y ago
    This is almost certainly going to rarely happen. Almost no server feels empowered enough to insist on this. And restaurant owners will start insisting on collecting and counting cash tips so they can fully account for the wages. No server wants their boss counting their cash tips. At least in Massachusetts, declared tips is self reported.
    - greedo 10y ago
      I'm surprised this is still allowed by the IRS. When I was a waiter back in the 80's in California, we went from self-reporting to turning in our tips. All the tips were pooled, then divvy'd up between waitstaff, busboys, cooks, managers etc. And taxes were taken documented. So our "paycheck" was puny since the withholding was taken from our hourly payrate.
    - illumin8 10y ago
      I've even seen something very shady recently - a nice restaurant that added a mandatory 20% "service fee" to our party of 7, had fine print that said "60% of your service fee goes to your wait staff." The implication is that not only is this restaurant, which we ended up paying ~$80 a person to eat dinner + wine + dessert at, screwing their customers with the mandatory service charge, they're also screwing their employees by keeping 40% of it for the owner. I won't eat there again... Edit: Added visual proof (and name and shame): https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/t3UUaCU8gl6zPsVQghlvOQ/o.jpg https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/t3UUaCU8gl6zPsVQghlv... I would be happy to learn that the 40% was going to the cooks. It's still a shady practice, and what makes it worse than not informing your guests ahead of time is that they're doing this in the name of "providing a livable wage for our staff." Pay your staff a livable salary and stop screwing your customers over...
      - ensignavenger 10y ago
        I doubt that the 40% goes to the owner, it probably goes to the kitchen staff.
      - nommm-nommm 10y ago
        Hopefully the hostess and back of the house was tipped out with that 40%. It's also likely that 40% went into the owner's pocket though because that's totally legal! Since it was a non-negotiable service fee the DOL doesn't consider it gratuity (as gratuity is strictly optional) so they don't have to pass it on to their staff. I've seen this happen plenty of times, usually in the catering business, though not to the extent of 40%, usually around 5-10%.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    That rarely gets enforced. Employers don't want to pay, employees want to enhance their wages by not paying taxes.
    - isaac_is_goat 10y ago
      And in many cases, not reporting your tips as income and paying income tax on them is illegal...of course, not much chance of getting caught.
      - dragonwriter 10y ago
        IIRC, reporting lower-than-expected tips increases the probability of a tax audit, and required tip reporting for payroll and other tax purposes makes it not-that-hard for employee underreporting to be detected and established in the event of such an audit.
  - dragonwriter 10y ago
    > Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. In most cases, they'll also be fired quickly if they don't, so they'll overreport tips to "make" the minimum wage even if they don't actually receive enough. Whether or not tipping should exist, if it does, it shouldn't substitute for the minimum wage, it should be entirely on top of it.
awinder 10y ago
It's more insidious than that, since cash tips are self-reported income, it's also a great way to shield income from the IRS and reduce taxable income
BurningFrog 10y ago
It's an ingrained part of US culture. An individual restaurant owner _could_ try to change it, but that would probably be very hard.

radmuzom 10y ago

I find it very funny when people argue that increasing the minimum wage would increase costs for consumers (I don't necessarily disagree; in some cases it would, whether that is a bad thing is a different matter). I personally would pay a higher price, no tips and ensure that the workers serving can meet their basic needs via wages alone.

vkjv 10y ago
Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm
- lostphilosopher 10y ago
  This idea of "making up the difference" comes up in every convo on tipping. The counter point is usually that it doesn't happen. (Debate ensues...) But even if it happened FOR SURE EVERY TIME. What an inefficient system! Rather than just paying the minimum wage up front, with predictable, projectable costs, businesses spend person hours on calculating tips, hours worked, per employee, etc. And then have to pay (potentially) widely varying amounts at the end of the cycle. I get that some customers and some servers like the practice of tipping. But why not require employers to pay (at least) the minimum wage, period. You could still tip if you want to, and an you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy, than the difference between rent and no-rent.
  - andrewflnr 10y ago
    you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy Isn't that where we started? I don't think that's stable. If some people get tips, the next tier of goodish servers is going to think they deserve tips, until you end up where we are now.
    - srinathrajaram 10y ago
      You can start there and stay there. This does not escalate like you assume. The rest of the world works just fine with this system. I suspect that the escalation in the US has something to do with employers getting greedy and trying to reduce wages to factor in tips. I don't have any evidence to back this up.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- thoughtsimple 10y ago
  This is almost certainly going to rarely happen. Almost no server feels empowered enough to insist on this. And restaurant owners will start insisting on collecting and counting cash tips so they can fully account for the wages. No server wants their boss counting their cash tips. At least in Massachusetts, declared tips is self reported.
  - greedo 10y ago
    I'm surprised this is still allowed by the IRS. When I was a waiter back in the 80's in California, we went from self-reporting to turning in our tips. All the tips were pooled, then divvy'd up between waitstaff, busboys, cooks, managers etc. And taxes were taken documented. So our "paycheck" was puny since the withholding was taken from our hourly payrate.
  - illumin8 10y ago
    I've even seen something very shady recently - a nice restaurant that added a mandatory 20% "service fee" to our party of 7, had fine print that said "60% of your service fee goes to your wait staff." The implication is that not only is this restaurant, which we ended up paying ~$80 a person to eat dinner + wine + dessert at, screwing their customers with the mandatory service charge, they're also screwing their employees by keeping 40% of it for the owner. I won't eat there again... Edit: Added visual proof (and name and shame): https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/t3UUaCU8gl6zPsVQghlvOQ/o.jpg https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/t3UUaCU8gl6zPsVQghlv... I would be happy to learn that the 40% was going to the cooks. It's still a shady practice, and what makes it worse than not informing your guests ahead of time is that they're doing this in the name of "providing a livable wage for our staff." Pay your staff a livable salary and stop screwing your customers over...
    - ensignavenger 10y ago
      I doubt that the 40% goes to the owner, it probably goes to the kitchen staff.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Hopefully the hostess and back of the house was tipped out with that 40%. It's also likely that 40% went into the owner's pocket though because that's totally legal! Since it was a non-negotiable service fee the DOL doesn't consider it gratuity (as gratuity is strictly optional) so they don't have to pass it on to their staff. I've seen this happen plenty of times, usually in the catering business, though not to the extent of 40%, usually around 5-10%.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  That rarely gets enforced. Employers don't want to pay, employees want to enhance their wages by not paying taxes.
  - isaac_is_goat 10y ago
    And in many cases, not reporting your tips as income and paying income tax on them is illegal...of course, not much chance of getting caught.
    - dragonwriter 10y ago
      IIRC, reporting lower-than-expected tips increases the probability of a tax audit, and required tip reporting for payroll and other tax purposes makes it not-that-hard for employee underreporting to be detected and established in the event of such an audit.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  > Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference. In most cases, they'll also be fired quickly if they don't, so they'll overreport tips to "make" the minimum wage even if they don't actually receive enough. Whether or not tipping should exist, if it does, it shouldn't substitute for the minimum wage, it should be entirely on top of it.

awinder 10y ago

It's more insidious than that, since cash tips are self-reported income, it's also a great way to shield income from the IRS and reduce taxable income

BurningFrog 10y ago

It's an ingrained part of US culture. An individual restaurant owner _could_ try to change it, but that would probably be very hard.