4 ms·

> And yet it's considerably more expensive. Even after you've included all of your costs? It's easy to say the raw food ingredients are considerably less expe

> And yet it's considerably more expensive. Even after you've included all of your costs? It's easy to say the raw food ingredients are considerably less expensive, but that's only a small part of the story. There is a cost of having a kitchen (tools and space in the home), utility costs, not to mention your time. Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost.

ktRolster 10y ago
Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost. Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. The ingredients are a lot cheaper than buying at McDonald's, too. If you have more than one person eating, then the cost savings can really add up.
- randomdata 10y ago
  > Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. For all practical purposes of modern urban life, you at least need some kind of specialized heating apparatus. More importantly, somewhere to store that apparatus. Which is quite often a kitchen. In San Francisco, the median housing cost per square foot is almost $1,000. A small kitchen is defined as 70 square feet, or $70,000. If we assume a rate of 3%, the opportunity cost of that kitchen is almost $6 per day, or $2 per meal if we assume three meals per day. That brings the cost of an $8 McDonalds meal down to about $6 right there. Then there is your time. San Francisco has officially declared that your time is worth at least $13/hr. At that rate you have just 28 minutes before you've already used up that $6. That includes gathering the ingredients, prepping the food, cooking the food, and cleaning up afterwards. That does not leave a lot of room for error, even for something as simple as burgers and fries. It does indeed get better with scale, but I have also left off a number of other costs, including the cost of the food itself. For a single person (in SF) it is no contest without even getting into other costs. Of course, there is something to be said about the food you can create yourself, versus eating at Mcdonalds every meal. Cost isn't everything.
  - cr0sh 10y ago
    There's also the fact that you can't just buy enough to make one hamburger and some fries. At a minimum, you can buy enough to make 2-3 hamburgers (and you'll have leftover buns, cheese, etc). So now you have to store that extra stuff (more sq footage and refrigeration costs). You might not eat it all (and it goes bad, meaning you throw it away). Or you might freeze it for later (maybe - some things you can't freeze of course).
  - ktRolster 10y ago
    I don't think you can get an apartment without a kitchen.
    - randomdata 10y ago
      Of course, that doesn't mean they are free. There is a very real cost to having the means of production.
emodendroket 10y ago
...Have you never cooked a meal for yourself or something? Yes, even after accounting for those things, which are amortized over time, the cost of a single meal is not 4+ times the cost of the ingredients. Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive. As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper.
- randomdata 10y ago
  > ...Have you never cooked a meal for yourself or something? No? I try to cook most of my meals. In fact, I prefer it over eating out. I'm not convinced it is fiscally optimal though, but I'm okay with paying the premium for my preference. > which are amortized over time Like I pointed out in my other comment, simply having a small kitchen in San Francisco will cost you $2 per meal (assuming you eat three meals per day in it), on average. And that amount per meal goes up if you ever decide to skip a meal or eat away from home on occasion. That is not an insignificant amount when prepared meals are also available in the single digit range. > Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive. If we're talking a programmers wage, you can barely even get into the grocery store before you've accrued enough to pay for several McDonalds meals. Never mind the actual cooking, cleaning, etc. It's not even in the same ballpark of competitiveness. But, like I pointed out in the other comment, even if you only accounted for minimum wage, it barely gives you enough time to serve a meal before it is costing you money. For a fair analysis, you do have to consider some amount. Maybe not the full amount that you would make at your day job, but something for sure. It is another opportunity cost, after all. If you are not including opportunity cost, you are not painting a true picture. > As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper. I wouldn't get too hung up on McDonalds specifically. There are some decent mom and pop joints that will give you a good meal for even less than McDonalds. The point was to exclude $50+ a plate-type places, or whatever, as they are selling an experience that so happens to include food.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    My point is that if you compare like meals with like meals home cooking is going to be far cheaper just about every time. If you compare cooking a steak to eating eggs and potatoes at a diner maybe not. Restaurants sell just about everything at at least 4 times the cost of the ingredients. The energy and so on aren't exactly free but they're not running a charity either.

ktRolster 10y ago

Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost. Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. The ingredients are a lot cheaper than buying at McDonald's, too. If you have more than one person eating, then the cost savings can really add up.

randomdata 10y ago
> Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. For all practical purposes of modern urban life, you at least need some kind of specialized heating apparatus. More importantly, somewhere to store that apparatus. Which is quite often a kitchen. In San Francisco, the median housing cost per square foot is almost $1,000. A small kitchen is defined as 70 square feet, or $70,000. If we assume a rate of 3%, the opportunity cost of that kitchen is almost $6 per day, or $2 per meal if we assume three meals per day. That brings the cost of an $8 McDonalds meal down to about $6 right there. Then there is your time. San Francisco has officially declared that your time is worth at least $13/hr. At that rate you have just 28 minutes before you've already used up that $6. That includes gathering the ingredients, prepping the food, cooking the food, and cleaning up afterwards. That does not leave a lot of room for error, even for something as simple as burgers and fries. It does indeed get better with scale, but I have also left off a number of other costs, including the cost of the food itself. For a single person (in SF) it is no contest without even getting into other costs. Of course, there is something to be said about the food you can create yourself, versus eating at Mcdonalds every meal. Cost isn't everything.
- cr0sh 10y ago
  There's also the fact that you can't just buy enough to make one hamburger and some fries. At a minimum, you can buy enough to make 2-3 hamburgers (and you'll have leftover buns, cheese, etc). So now you have to store that extra stuff (more sq footage and refrigeration costs). You might not eat it all (and it goes bad, meaning you throw it away). Or you might freeze it for later (maybe - some things you can't freeze of course).
- ktRolster 10y ago
  I don't think you can get an apartment without a kitchen.
  - randomdata 10y ago
    Of course, that doesn't mean they are free. There is a very real cost to having the means of production.

emodendroket 10y ago

...Have you never cooked a meal for yourself or something? Yes, even after accounting for those things, which are amortized over time, the cost of a single meal is not 4+ times the cost of the ingredients. Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive. As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper.

randomdata 10y ago
> ...Have you never cooked a meal for yourself or something? No? I try to cook most of my meals. In fact, I prefer it over eating out. I'm not convinced it is fiscally optimal though, but I'm okay with paying the premium for my preference. > which are amortized over time Like I pointed out in my other comment, simply having a small kitchen in San Francisco will cost you $2 per meal (assuming you eat three meals per day in it), on average. And that amount per meal goes up if you ever decide to skip a meal or eat away from home on occasion. That is not an insignificant amount when prepared meals are also available in the single digit range. > Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive. If we're talking a programmers wage, you can barely even get into the grocery store before you've accrued enough to pay for several McDonalds meals. Never mind the actual cooking, cleaning, etc. It's not even in the same ballpark of competitiveness. But, like I pointed out in the other comment, even if you only accounted for minimum wage, it barely gives you enough time to serve a meal before it is costing you money. For a fair analysis, you do have to consider some amount. Maybe not the full amount that you would make at your day job, but something for sure. It is another opportunity cost, after all. If you are not including opportunity cost, you are not painting a true picture. > As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper. I wouldn't get too hung up on McDonalds specifically. There are some decent mom and pop joints that will give you a good meal for even less than McDonalds. The point was to exclude $50+ a plate-type places, or whatever, as they are selling an experience that so happens to include food.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  My point is that if you compare like meals with like meals home cooking is going to be far cheaper just about every time. If you compare cooking a steak to eating eggs and potatoes at a diner maybe not. Restaurants sell just about everything at at least 4 times the cost of the ingredients. The energy and so on aren't exactly free but they're not running a charity either.