5 ms·

The problem with no tipping, in my experince (especially in Europe), is that waiters aren't incentivized to turn tables. If you go to a popular spot for dinner

by pzh 10y ago

The problem with no tipping, in my experince (especially in Europe), is that waiters aren't incentivized to turn tables. If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Usually, there is no concept of a waiting list or a waiting time estimate, because diners are conditioned that they can spend 3 or 4 hours over a bottle of wine, and there would be no pressure to pay and leave, so waiters find it impossible to make any promises regarding when a table would free up. Additionally, the waitstaff won't be paid extra to make an effort and try to serve more tables on a given night (being on a fixed salaries), so they'll be quite leisurely about their business. Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US.

sgift 10y ago
> Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US. If I'd like to be pressured to leave asap I would go to a fast food chain. So, this doesn't sound like a problem at all, more like a feature.
- pzh 10y ago
  It is a nice feature unless you're on the other end of the deal, walking from one completely full restaurant to another looking for a table. In a sense, it's an inefficiency because a table may free up shortly after you leave, but the staff wouldn't care to predict that.
  - oblio 10y ago
    You could call and make a reservation.
    - pzh 10y ago
      Not every place does reservations.
wjossey 10y ago
This is something I've also experienced during my travels to Europe, in particular in Paris. I will say I've found this to be a "feature", not a "bug". In addition, it's uncommon for the check to be presented without it first being asked for, whereas in the US, once you "pass" on desert, you're given a check. I'd love to see a non-tipping culture organically rise up. I'd choose restaurants that pay a living wage for all full time employees, sans the need for tips. I know some restaurants have experimented with negative results, but I'd like to (maybe wishfully) believe that this can still take hold in the US.
- bradleyankrom 10y ago
  I would imagine that the restaurant considers it closer to a bug than a feature because its tables are finite. Parties that come in looking for a table aren't necessarily going to be queued up, most will just go somewhere else.
  - pzh 10y ago
    Precisely that! But apart from the inability to predict table occupancy (for which you could theoretically come up with some ML solution), the other issue is that from a strict economic sense, having people occupy a table for 3 hours vs 1 hour while paying the same amount of money is a singificant opportunity cost to the business. In essence, from the perspective of the restaurant, people who are having a 3-hour meal and a long conversation are using a resource for which they're not paying, while other potentially paying customers are being turned away. A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated. That's why I find it hard to believe that businesses will find it in their best interest to eliminate tips.
    - freeflight 10y ago
      >A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated. What you consider an "inefficiency" is part of a lifestyle in big parts of Europe. Going out to eat isn't just considered "calorie intake" that needs to be "as quick and efficient as possible", it's considered leisure and social time, especially in the southern parts of Europe like Greece, Italy or Spain. It's also very seldom that people really manage to just drink one bottle of wine in 3 hours, usually it's bigger groups and they tend to drink a lot once they finished eating. Depending on how the restaurant prices their drinks the "3 hour drinking group" can end up making way more money for the restaurant than trying to shove 3 parties of "Just eat something with a small soda", into the same timeframe.
Fife 10y ago
Yes, and some of us really appreciate this. I love long lunches and dinners. I hate visiting many US places and feeling rushed. Sometimes I think American dining is about just food, rather than the whole experience of dining, which includes the conversation with friends and family.
arrrg 10y ago
I usually just reserve a table a couple of days in advance … (Germany) Being able to talk and enjoy your time even after you’ve finished your meal is a feature, not a bug. (But there are tips in Germany, though the average tip is probably well below ten percent.)
ktRolster 10y ago
If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Or better yet, when the waiter at a cafe says very politely, "Oh yes, sit anywhere!" when there isn't an empty chair in the place.
herbst 10y ago
You make this sound like the best thing ever and not like a problem. Glad to live in europe where it is exactly like that.
emodendroket 10y ago
See, the problem is you aren't comparing to enough places. People don't typically sit around restaurants for three hours in Japan despite there being no tips. I'd say there are other cultural factors at play here -- European customers don't want to be rushed out and would dislike a restaurant that hurried them, tips or not.
angryasian 10y ago
Then this is a problem with management that doesn't care to offer a certain level of customer service. Management should make a policy and make things up front. If their staff can't carry out their expectations, then fire them and bring in new staff. It shouldn't be the customers that do a managers job.

by pzh 10y ago

sgift 10y ago

> Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US. If I'd like to be pressured to leave asap I would go to a fast food chain. So, this doesn't sound like a problem at all, more like a feature.

pzh 10y ago
It is a nice feature unless you're on the other end of the deal, walking from one completely full restaurant to another looking for a table. In a sense, it's an inefficiency because a table may free up shortly after you leave, but the staff wouldn't care to predict that.
- oblio 10y ago
  You could call and make a reservation.
  - pzh 10y ago
    Not every place does reservations.

wjossey 10y ago

This is something I've also experienced during my travels to Europe, in particular in Paris. I will say I've found this to be a "feature", not a "bug". In addition, it's uncommon for the check to be presented without it first being asked for, whereas in the US, once you "pass" on desert, you're given a check. I'd love to see a non-tipping culture organically rise up. I'd choose restaurants that pay a living wage for all full time employees, sans the need for tips. I know some restaurants have experimented with negative results, but I'd like to (maybe wishfully) believe that this can still take hold in the US.

bradleyankrom 10y ago
I would imagine that the restaurant considers it closer to a bug than a feature because its tables are finite. Parties that come in looking for a table aren't necessarily going to be queued up, most will just go somewhere else.
- pzh 10y ago
  Precisely that! But apart from the inability to predict table occupancy (for which you could theoretically come up with some ML solution), the other issue is that from a strict economic sense, having people occupy a table for 3 hours vs 1 hour while paying the same amount of money is a singificant opportunity cost to the business. In essence, from the perspective of the restaurant, people who are having a 3-hour meal and a long conversation are using a resource for which they're not paying, while other potentially paying customers are being turned away. A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated. That's why I find it hard to believe that businesses will find it in their best interest to eliminate tips.
  - freeflight 10y ago
    >A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated. What you consider an "inefficiency" is part of a lifestyle in big parts of Europe. Going out to eat isn't just considered "calorie intake" that needs to be "as quick and efficient as possible", it's considered leisure and social time, especially in the southern parts of Europe like Greece, Italy or Spain. It's also very seldom that people really manage to just drink one bottle of wine in 3 hours, usually it's bigger groups and they tend to drink a lot once they finished eating. Depending on how the restaurant prices their drinks the "3 hour drinking group" can end up making way more money for the restaurant than trying to shove 3 parties of "Just eat something with a small soda", into the same timeframe.

Fife 10y ago

Yes, and some of us really appreciate this. I love long lunches and dinners. I hate visiting many US places and feeling rushed. Sometimes I think American dining is about just food, rather than the whole experience of dining, which includes the conversation with friends and family.

arrrg 10y ago

I usually just reserve a table a couple of days in advance … (Germany) Being able to talk and enjoy your time even after you’ve finished your meal is a feature, not a bug. (But there are tips in Germany, though the average tip is probably well below ten percent.)

ktRolster 10y ago

If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Or better yet, when the waiter at a cafe says very politely, "Oh yes, sit anywhere!" when there isn't an empty chair in the place.

herbst 10y ago

You make this sound like the best thing ever and not like a problem. Glad to live in europe where it is exactly like that.

emodendroket 10y ago

See, the problem is you aren't comparing to enough places. People don't typically sit around restaurants for three hours in Japan despite there being no tips. I'd say there are other cultural factors at play here -- European customers don't want to be rushed out and would dislike a restaurant that hurried them, tips or not.

angryasian 10y ago

Then this is a problem with management that doesn't care to offer a certain level of customer service. Management should make a policy and make things up front. If their staff can't carry out their expectations, then fire them and bring in new staff. It shouldn't be the customers that do a managers job.