7 ms·
Year of Upheaval for Restaurants That Ended Tipping
- th0ma5 10y agoSurprised it doesn't mention the somewhat unspoken agreement that at least some of tip wages go unreported by those that receive them, although, I guess that is possibly disappearing with the increase in credit card tipping perhaps?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- zeroer 10y agoIf you really like your server, pay the bill with a credit card, but leave no tip on the card, then pay the tip with cash.
- chrisseaton 10y agoBecause that facilities tax evasion?
- glibgil 10y agoYes
- chrisseaton 10y agoIt seems crazy to me that you're doing this as a kind of social service for the waiter or waitress, while helping to withhold owed tax revenue that could be used for other people who may be in need of social services.
- s_kilk 10y agoThe tax money would be spent on nukes, not public services.
- wutbrodo 10y agoYou really shouldn't believe whatever you hear: whoever told you that grossly misinformed you. Even if we assume that "spent on nukes" is hyperbole for "spent on the military", the military is 16% of the federal budget, absolutely dwarfed by the rest of the budget (which mostly consists of items fairly described as public services). And that's the federal budget alone: state taxes obviously don't even have _that_ small proportion allocated to military spending so are even more heavily predisposed to social services.
- monort 10y agoImagine you are not required to pay taxes and everything is voluntary. Would you donate to an entity, that spends just 16% of donation on killing people? Why do you feel different when this entity is your government?
- wutbrodo 10y agoI'm not interested in your irrelevant pet political issue: FWIW, I'm far from an advocate of reflexive govt action or high military spending. Neither of those views warrant misleading implications about tax dollars going to nukes and not social services.
- huxley 10y agoThe US Department of Defense has received about 19% directly and that amount doesn't include defence related spending by other departments nor does it include spending in Iraq and Afghanistan (or other overseas adventures).
- tmd83 10y ago16% is small? what would be considered big?
- psyc 10y agoDo real, flesh and blood people actually in real life wring their hands over the indeterminate effects of their miniscule mundane daily decisions?
- lisper 10y agoI'm not sure I "wring my hands" over it, but when I make a decision I do tend to think about what would happen if everyone did what I'm about to do.
- KKKKkkkk1 10y agoWhy would one prefer to pay for abstract social services extended to people who are TBD instead of rewarding a specific person to whom one is actually grateful?
- chrisseaton 10y agoBecause of the law? You can still reward them as much as you want, but the law says that some of that reward has to be sent to the government. I can understand not agreeing with that law, but I can't understand justifying helping someone to breaking it in a non-emergency situation.
- maverick_iceman 10y agoI don't think most people would comply with the law (at the expense of even minor personal gratification) unless there is a possibility of penalty.
- zeroer 10y agoCrazy? Come'on, that's a bit strong, no? I have philosophical disagreements with a large portion but not all of my governments spending. Giving it to a waiter seems like a much better use of my money.
- wil421 10y agoAt one restaurant I worked at you would be flagged in the system if reported tips were less than 15% of total sales. The managers would ask you and make sure you are reporting accurately. 20% is the norm in my area.
- Noseshine 10y agoI'm not sure about it, but I think a restaurant owner I once knew told me that the German "Finanzamt" (tax authority) calculates what the average amount of tips should be for any given restaurant based on the data they have (adjusting for location, type, prices). If you report less than that amount in income they'll go after you.
- smallnamespace 10y agoEven if these restaurants succeed, one risk is that 'no tipping' is just something that upscale restaurants in rich areas adopt because only they can afford to. Waiters in those restaurants are already compensated much better than your average waiter on a roadway diner -- this would literally only be helping the already better off.
- huhtenberg 10y agoIn a lot of European countries restaurant tips are completely superficial and not expected, because wait stuff is already properly salaried. This includes all restaurant and cafe sizes.
- smallnamespace 10y agoYeah, but switching from a tipping to no-tipping equilibrium is probably hard. It's hard for a no-tipping restaurant to compete because the advertised menu prices will simply be higher, and you'd need consumers to mentally adjust all prices ~13% downward. "But some restaurants that adopted a no-tipping policy in 2016 have already revoked it: The New York restaurateurs David Chang, Tom Colicchio and Gabe Stulman all found it unworkable in the small-scale experiments they tried. “We continue to be supportive of the no-tipping movement,” Mr. Colicchio said, “but we’ve heard from our customers and team that they just aren’t ready for it yet.”" EDIT: It looks like just tacking on a service charge doesn't necessarily work either [1]. Probably diners hate being 'forced' to tip? These high-end restaurants are able to counteract that with their 'we're helping our waiters' newspaper PR blitz, by banding together, and because rich consumers are probably a bit less price-conscious. But I don't think that approach scales well at the lower end, where most wait staff actually work. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/momofuku-nishi-tipping_us_5692b9e8e4b0cad15e65343d http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/momofuku-nishi-tipping_u...
- mahyarm 10y agoAdvertise the lower prices and then add a flat 'staff service fee'. That way you can advertise the same prices with a similar tip difference.
- rdl 10y agoI don't see why they can't just keep prices the same and add a "mandatory 20% service charge" at the bottom.
- argonaut 10y agoAccording to the article, tips must go only to front house staff by NY state law.
- waiseristy 10y agoPeople will get even more angry with that, as they will feel they have been slighted by a "hidden cost".
- crummy 10y agoThat happens all the time at many restaurants for larger groups.
- waiseristy 10y agoI know, I was a waiter for years. We had to get rid of that policy because we were losing business.
- rdl 10y agoMy problem with mandatory tip (usually I see 18%), especially when it is just applied to people redeeming a groupon or something and not everyone, is that I then view it as both a floor and a ceiling, and so does the waiter.
- woof 10y agoThis Freakonomics episode from 2013 is well worth spending 37 minutes on before commenting. Or tipping... http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-n...
- grzm 10y agoAs is this one from March 2016: "The No-Tipping Point" http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/ http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/
- thinkloop 10y agoNo tipping is tricky when it's not mandated, because prices always look and feel more expensive comparatively, even if it works out the same in the end. People are very impressionable to their initial sub-conscious impressions. Hence pricing like $9.99. It seems marketers have been aggressively going the other way over the last few years: do whatever it takes to minimize the sticker shock, then siphon as much as possible from the relationship. - new car for only $149! (every two weeks) - cheap tickets, but charge for seat-choice, blankets, bags, etc. - collect hundreds of tiny taxes instead of one equivalent (simpler) income tax - loss lead then recoup on servicing and insurance - cheap plans with punitive overages - access fee, upgrade fee, change fee introduced at the cash I'm personally finding it more and more difficult to calculate total cost of ownership of products and services. If your prices are advertised at 20% higher than everyone else's, I can't see this working except at the most inelastic high-end restaurants.
- IanCal 10y agoOn the other side, it reduces cognitive overhead. For this, see unlimited plans (e.g. all you can eat, all inclusive holidays, unlimited streaming like netflix, etc) which may or may not be more expensive than paying as you go. Even bags of veg costing more than individual items in the UK is common. It reduces the effort of making the decision, and so makes it the easiest path. All you can eat restaurants are probably the simplest counterexample for your list. It can remove the decision between places from "Well X is a bit less than Y but then the service is better, what's 20% of that vs 15% of ... added..." to just "It costs $X".
- tmnvix 10y agoslightly related: I've never been to the US but have been aware of the mandatory tipping situation for a fair while. I'm curious though; when I was first made aware of it (2 or 3 decades ago), I am sure that the 'standard' tip was supposed to be closer to 10% than 20%. Is this correct? Has the actual % amount changed?
- adiabatty 10y agoTwo or three decades ago 15% was modal (and it might still be), but I hear the mean crept up to 18% sometime in the past five years.
- tmnvix 10y agoInteresting. I wonder why. Maybe compensating for stagnating wages? Or maybe falling food and beverage costs (in relative terms)?
- erroneousfunk 10y agoI live in the US and have noticed the same phenomenon. I assumed it was just social pressure and growing awareness of inequality and poor living conditions of some wait staff. Giving an extra $2 is an easy way to feel good about yourself. Then more people started doing it, and to keep feeling good about yourself you had to tip more and more. I'll give exactly 15% if the service is bad, 20% if it's good.
- varjag 10y agoI heard it's "double sales tax" as 'normal' tip, or at least that's what NYC waiters were telling me.
- mcv 10y agoI don't live in the US, but have started rounding prices up to roughly 10%. I hope this tipping isn't going to drive wages down. Should I stop?
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- thesimpsons1022 10y agoi'm curious to know if abolishing tipping reduces performance? it seems like there's no reason to put in extra effort if all of them are paid the same and that the worst performer could be paid the same as the best.
- askvictor 10y agoIt might reduce competition within the restaurant, but competition between restaurants remains. certain restaurants can prioritise service by paying their servers more if that's their focus. Theres also a perverse incentive in that, like a good UI, good service shouldn't actually be noticed, so how does a server make themselves noticed (to receive a tip) while not being noticed?
- continuational 10y agoIf a restaurant has bad service, people will eat elsewhere. That means restaurants will hire waiters who provide good service and fire waiters who provide bad service. It seems to work out well enough in countries where you don't normally tip.
- Broken_Hippo 10y agoI have long since lost the link, but I think it actually improves customer experience and improves the job atmosphere, leaving people less stressed. This is mostly because servers now share duties. You say there is no reason to put in extra effort: I disagree. This doesn't seem to be a problem at other jobs. Some people simply try more or put in the extra effort. They also generally enjoy better chances for promotion, good references, and so on.
- fermigier 10y agoThis transition (from a tipping system to a "service included" system) happened in France in the 70s. I'm personally, as a French and as a customer, much more confortable with the new system, and I always a bit ill at ease when dining out in countries that still use the old system: fear of making a miscalculation, of forgetting the tip, of not giving an amount that would be satisfying for the waiter/waitress, of the money not going to the actual person who would deserve it (especially when paying with a credit card), etc.
- wubbfindel 10y agoI've been to many restaurants here in the UK (and in Europe) where the "service charge" is automatically applied to the bill. You're not expected to tip at these places. Many people don't realise; If you receive bad service, complain and the charge can be either reduced or waived altogether. [edit for clarity]
- 2muchcoffeeman 10y agoTipping is required in the U.K. and Europe?
- wubbfindel 10y agoNo, not at all. But when an establishment includes a service charge it's not expected either. P.S. Nice username. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_Much_Coffee_Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Too_Much_Coffee_Man
- robjan 10y agoI don't really like the trend of automatically adding a service charge to bills in London. It's a bit dishonest as it's just used as a way to reduce the prices on the menu outside the door to draw more customers in and the staff do not directly receive the money raised.
- wubbfindel 10y agoIn a lot of places they don't directly receive the tips either, they all go in to one pot to be shared. Have you ever tried asking for the charge to be removed if you're not happy with the service?
- gommm 10y ago> Tips are also handled differently in different states, but in New York, by law, they can be pooled and distributed only to “front of house” employees: those who work in the dining room, like waiters, bartenders and backwaiters (formerly known as busboys). That really makes no sense to me. When I go to a restaurant, I value the food a lot more than the service. I've come back again to restaurants where I hated the service but loved the food. I've never returned to a restaurant where I loved the service but the food was so-so. So, if I had to choose, I'd be tipping the kitchen staff only. But as a European, I don't really like the practice of tipping and the rather pushy service from waiters trying to increase the bill (and come every 5 minutes asking me if everything's alright) that comes with it. It's also so much easier to not have to think about tipping at the end of a meal.
- ikeyany 10y agoIt makes sense when you think about it from the perspective of a culture that is focused on image and the perception of image. With that point of view in mind, why would you prioritize those working behind the scenes?
- xorxornop 10y agoBecause it perpetuates that culture. I'd really rather not perpetuate it.
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- wil421 10y agoThe kitchen staff are paid much higher hourly and usually work full time. If you heard what kitchen staff say about customers you probably wouldn't want to tip them. For example when I was a waiter we made $2.13 an hour. Kitchen staff were usually in the $10-$15 range and many of them got overtime. Tipping is just a way for owners to increase profits by passing more cost to the customer.
- musha68k 10y agoWage slavery is especially rampant in the food and beverage industry where low margins and high competition are the norm. Including "tips" (you could still tip for extraordinary service) as well as sales tax in the price might be the first step towards more transparency and fair pay for everyone involved (owners to waiters) in what essentially amounts to a luxury service anyway.
- nish1500 10y agoI am in Thailand now, where the amount you see on the menu is exactly what you pay. I just spent 10 days in New Delhi, India, where they add between 25% and 33% to your bill, before tips, in the name of VAT, Service Tax and Service Charge. It's a world of difference. So much trust is lost.
- 55555 10y agoIn many restaurants in Thailand they add 10% + 7% (service charge and VAT) to the prices listed on the menu. However, the menu must disclose this, typically in fine print at the bottom.
- golergka 10y agoHow is it a luxury service?
- Broken_Hippo 10y agoYou can cook your own food, cut your own hair, park your own cars, and so on. Instead, you are paying another human to do these things for you, sometimes waiting on you in the process. Most of the things we tip for we can go without. How are these not luxury services?
- golergka 10y agoMost of the things you described are cheaper to pay to a specialist to so than the cost of education and time to perform yourself. Cooking your own food and cutting your own hair with the same quality is the real luxury. Never driven a car so don't know anything about that.
- _ph_ 10y agoI hate tipping for all the awkward situations that can arise, when there is confusion about the expected amount for the "average" tip. Recently I attended a dinner for which the attending group had gotten a food voucher and only had to pay the drinks. Which we did with a nice tip - for the drinks. Neither we nor the giver of the voucher had preempted, that the waiter expected a tip for the food too. Which of course is debatable, as here in Germany, service is considered to be included in the prices. So, at the end, no one was happy, without any malicious intends on our side. Traditionally, there was little tipping here in Germany, as service is included in the prices. One would usually just round up the cents. But with growing internationalization, tips started to grow - while technically still not required, there is now a strong expectancy of some tipping, adding to the confusion about the right amount. At least, as long the basic service is included in the posted price, one can use the tipping as a feedback instrument. Rarely, I cut the tip to zero when I was very unhappy with the service provided, while I am happy to pay a generous tip, if I thought I had been serviced very well.
- golergka 10y agoI know that I would avoid no-tpping restoraunts as a customer - losing ability to give direct feedback on the quality of service is not something in my interest at all.
- _nalply 10y agoTo avoid the sticker shock: List the prices minus a service charge of 15%. On the menu prominently display that a service charge is added. Perhaps it's a bit confusing but at least the prices are comparable.