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I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time

I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play telephone from one side of the room to the other, no thanks, I'd rather save the 20% and order off an iPad.

alooPotato 10y ago
I would kill to order off an iPad
- isostatic 10y ago
  My favourite luncheon place in Singapore has iPads at every table. So much more relaxed then a waiter.
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    Which place is that? I remember when Ichiban switched to iPads and optimistically fired about 30% of their wait staff, presumably after drinking the kool aid. The service was horrendous until they hired them back.
    - isostatic 10y ago
      It's in our office block (aperia, well north of the cdb). Not sure what it's called, but makes lunch a breeze and means I'll usually go there rather than grabbing a sandwich from Spinellis coffee shop
- throwaway6845 10y ago
  I would kill to _pay_ with an iPad. Absolute biggest hate at restaurants: waiting too long for the bill. I have eaten. I have enjoyed it. I now want to go somewhere else for a drink, or catch my train home, or whatever. Don't make me wait.
Symbiote 10y ago
Which other services would you introduce tipping to? Fast food? Buying shoes? Car wash? Repairing plumbing? Fixing a computer? I don't see why eating in a restaurant should need extra incentives to the waiters, when we expect good service without tips elsewhere.
- jay_kyburz 10y ago
  Many years ago I was working in the US for a few months and went to get a haircut. I wondered why the guy looked at me strange when I suck my hand out for my change. It wasn't until I was back in my hotel room that realised I was probably supposed to tip.
  - cyberferret 10y ago
    Same experience on my first trip to the US. The taxi ride from airport to hotel was $12. I didnt have small notes on me as i had just changed my money, so i gave him a $20 note. I waited and he just looked at me incredulously and asked "What? Do you want CHANGE??". I apologised and said i forgot about the tip thing and perhaps he could just give me a couple of singles as change. I thought that basically 40% tip was a little high. He gave me a couple of bucks back with ill grace. Pretty much turned me off the whole expected tipping culture altogether.
    - nommm-nommm 10y ago
      Cab drivers are notorious for "tipping themselves" (withholding some or all change unless explicitly asked for it).
- coldtea 10y ago
  >I don't see why eating in a restaurant should need extra incentives to the waiters, when we expect good service without tips elsewhere. Forget what you "expect". Do you actually GET "good service without tips elsewhere"? My point (and the parent's point) exactly.
  - 10y ago
joshontheweb 10y ago
Agreed. Tipping culture gives more power to the customer and results in better service in my experience. Every time I come back to the US I experience a noticeable increase in attention and service. Also, when abroad, if they find out you are from the US many servers will put in extra work as they know there is a decent chance you will tip based on your home culture. I always tip even in countries where it isn't expected especially if I plan on frequenting the establishment regularly. Im happy to pay a bit more for more attentive service.
- alkonaut 10y ago
  The thing people seem to be missing though is that a set "expected tip level" ruins the whole thing. If you are expected to tip 20% for just "service" what incentive does that give to provide "good service"? Sure you might have a higher chance of getting 30% for good service - but I think it's probably easier to get 10 or 20% for good service in a place where 0% is the expected level.
  - joshontheweb 10y ago
    If you aren't getting service worthy of tips, don't tip. No one is going to stop you on your way out. You may get worse service the next time you come back. However, why would you go back if the service was bad the first time?
    - alkonaut 10y ago
      > If you aren't getting service worthy of tips Thats the idea also where there isn't a set level of expected tip (like in most of the world). I'm not opposed to the idea of tipping, I'm opposed to the idea of a specific level of tip being expected, effectively making it a part of the staffs wages (which consequently means staff isnt' paid if you choose not to tip).
    - kingosticks 10y ago
      I was stopped and asked for a tip in a Canadian bar when I went to take the drinks back to our table. A dollar per beer to take the cap off. But North American's do seem to enjoy paying more than advertised. First a bunch of taxes, then some tips, I don't get it.
alkonaut 10y ago
> incentives matter Is the US system of tipping as an expected part of the pay of service staff really an incentive though? Isn't the incentive of service staff really just based on getting more than the "base tip" (which can be 10, 15 or 20%)? In countries where he "base tip" for the expected level of service is zero, tips can still be 10% or 20% for good service.
cefstat 10y ago
Interesting. It depends on what you mean by better off. I almost never had problems at restaurants with no or optional tipping. The waiters tend to behave professionally and this is what I wish. But in the US, I always feel uncomfortable with the over-the-top behavior of waiters. They behave like I am their long lost high-school friend and I find that creepy.
aninhumer 10y ago
Based on what I've seen in the US, tipping doesn't encourage good service, it encourages noticeable service. I'd rather be served by a slightly inattentive sullen teenager in the UK, than a perky waitress with a fake smile pestering me all the time in the US.
- lefstathiou 10y ago
  I respect that but find it to be a bizarre tradeoff I would never willingly make. I would pick the perky attentive waiter sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake over a sullen inattentive person anywhere. In fact, if someone is having a bad day, I actually appreciate the effort to make it better with a fake smile than imposing it on me with a bad attitude. I've experienced overbearing waiters and the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry. Back to the ultimate point: the question at hand is does tipping (overall) add to or take away from the quality of service provided to the partron. Based on my experience the answer is yes. All else equal - a person may or may not care about the tip.. in which case you get your base level of service. However, you may come across someone that does, in which case you are overwhelmingly more likely to get better service as a result. Last thought: I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service that ultimately adds (positively) to the mutual experience. Rarely have I been anywhere where I walked away thinking I would have gotten better had I not tipped.
  - aninhumer 10y ago
    > sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake If it's not fake, they're doing a bad job showing it. >the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry. Not angry, but it is an awkward thing to request, and I'd rather not have to. >I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service I absolutely disagree with that. I find reliance on tipping creates an alienating subservient relationship. No one is going to be genuine when they're depending on my opinion of them for their pay that evening.
- 10y ago
tomp 10y ago
Incentives matter, but a percentage based tip is simply the wrong incentive. It is the same amount of work for the waiter if I order $10 spaghetti and a $30 bottle of house wine, or if I order $50 steak and $300 bottle of Champagne. Why should s/he be rewarded for my own choices, based on no input or effort on his/her side whatsoever?!
notzorbo3 10y ago
In another thread someone mentioned how bad the service is in Dutch restaurants (which, being Dutch, I agree with). In the Netherlands tipping is not required but it's not uncommon to tip for good service. Yet the service is bad. So I don't believe tipping is such a good incentive. Unless perhaps you pay the waiters the absolute bare minimum and they basically need the tips to survive. It also doesn't really explain the fact that tipping in the US is basically mandatory, regardless of good service. If it's basically mandatory, where's the incentive to offer good service?
freeflight 10y ago
>Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). But this works both ways: If the service staff expects to be tipped regardless of the quality of service, then there's not much incentive for good service in the first place, because the customers are expected to tip anyway and bad service will just result in a marginally lower tip. If customers are not expected to tip at all, then the service staff has to put in some actual effort to get a tip, because their service needs to be so "exceptionally good" that the customer actually notices it, instead of just taking it for granted.
nommm-nommm 10y ago
I'm American. I've traveled enough and I've even lived outside of the US for a time. I have no idea how you can come to this conclusion, I've never had noticeably bad service outside the US and certainly nothing like "play[ing] telephone from one side of the room to the other." The only difference I notice is there's disturbingly fake niceness in the US and they rush you out after you're done eating. I guess if you are looking for someone to pretend to be your friend you'd get that. Personally, I'm just looking for a meal with my dining companions.

alooPotato 10y ago

I would kill to order off an iPad

isostatic 10y ago
My favourite luncheon place in Singapore has iPads at every table. So much more relaxed then a waiter.
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  Which place is that? I remember when Ichiban switched to iPads and optimistically fired about 30% of their wait staff, presumably after drinking the kool aid. The service was horrendous until they hired them back.
  - isostatic 10y ago
    It's in our office block (aperia, well north of the cdb). Not sure what it's called, but makes lunch a breeze and means I'll usually go there rather than grabbing a sandwich from Spinellis coffee shop
throwaway6845 10y ago
I would kill to _pay_ with an iPad. Absolute biggest hate at restaurants: waiting too long for the bill. I have eaten. I have enjoyed it. I now want to go somewhere else for a drink, or catch my train home, or whatever. Don't make me wait.

Symbiote 10y ago

Which other services would you introduce tipping to? Fast food? Buying shoes? Car wash? Repairing plumbing? Fixing a computer? I don't see why eating in a restaurant should need extra incentives to the waiters, when we expect good service without tips elsewhere.

jay_kyburz 10y ago
Many years ago I was working in the US for a few months and went to get a haircut. I wondered why the guy looked at me strange when I suck my hand out for my change. It wasn't until I was back in my hotel room that realised I was probably supposed to tip.
- cyberferret 10y ago
  Same experience on my first trip to the US. The taxi ride from airport to hotel was $12. I didnt have small notes on me as i had just changed my money, so i gave him a $20 note. I waited and he just looked at me incredulously and asked "What? Do you want CHANGE??". I apologised and said i forgot about the tip thing and perhaps he could just give me a couple of singles as change. I thought that basically 40% tip was a little high. He gave me a couple of bucks back with ill grace. Pretty much turned me off the whole expected tipping culture altogether.
  - nommm-nommm 10y ago
    Cab drivers are notorious for "tipping themselves" (withholding some or all change unless explicitly asked for it).
coldtea 10y ago
>I don't see why eating in a restaurant should need extra incentives to the waiters, when we expect good service without tips elsewhere. Forget what you "expect". Do you actually GET "good service without tips elsewhere"? My point (and the parent's point) exactly.
- 10y ago

joshontheweb 10y ago

Agreed. Tipping culture gives more power to the customer and results in better service in my experience. Every time I come back to the US I experience a noticeable increase in attention and service. Also, when abroad, if they find out you are from the US many servers will put in extra work as they know there is a decent chance you will tip based on your home culture. I always tip even in countries where it isn't expected especially if I plan on frequenting the establishment regularly. Im happy to pay a bit more for more attentive service.

alkonaut 10y ago
The thing people seem to be missing though is that a set "expected tip level" ruins the whole thing. If you are expected to tip 20% for just "service" what incentive does that give to provide "good service"? Sure you might have a higher chance of getting 30% for good service - but I think it's probably easier to get 10 or 20% for good service in a place where 0% is the expected level.
- joshontheweb 10y ago
  If you aren't getting service worthy of tips, don't tip. No one is going to stop you on your way out. You may get worse service the next time you come back. However, why would you go back if the service was bad the first time?
  - alkonaut 10y ago
    > If you aren't getting service worthy of tips Thats the idea also where there isn't a set level of expected tip (like in most of the world). I'm not opposed to the idea of tipping, I'm opposed to the idea of a specific level of tip being expected, effectively making it a part of the staffs wages (which consequently means staff isnt' paid if you choose not to tip).
  - kingosticks 10y ago
    I was stopped and asked for a tip in a Canadian bar when I went to take the drinks back to our table. A dollar per beer to take the cap off. But North American's do seem to enjoy paying more than advertised. First a bunch of taxes, then some tips, I don't get it.

alkonaut 10y ago

> incentives matter Is the US system of tipping as an expected part of the pay of service staff really an incentive though? Isn't the incentive of service staff really just based on getting more than the "base tip" (which can be 10, 15 or 20%)? In countries where he "base tip" for the expected level of service is zero, tips can still be 10% or 20% for good service.

cefstat 10y ago

Interesting. It depends on what you mean by better off. I almost never had problems at restaurants with no or optional tipping. The waiters tend to behave professionally and this is what I wish. But in the US, I always feel uncomfortable with the over-the-top behavior of waiters. They behave like I am their long lost high-school friend and I find that creepy.

aninhumer 10y ago

Based on what I've seen in the US, tipping doesn't encourage good service, it encourages noticeable service. I'd rather be served by a slightly inattentive sullen teenager in the UK, than a perky waitress with a fake smile pestering me all the time in the US.

lefstathiou 10y ago
I respect that but find it to be a bizarre tradeoff I would never willingly make. I would pick the perky attentive waiter sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake over a sullen inattentive person anywhere. In fact, if someone is having a bad day, I actually appreciate the effort to make it better with a fake smile than imposing it on me with a bad attitude. I've experienced overbearing waiters and the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry. Back to the ultimate point: the question at hand is does tipping (overall) add to or take away from the quality of service provided to the partron. Based on my experience the answer is yes. All else equal - a person may or may not care about the tip.. in which case you get your base level of service. However, you may come across someone that does, in which case you are overwhelmingly more likely to get better service as a result. Last thought: I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service that ultimately adds (positively) to the mutual experience. Rarely have I been anywhere where I walked away thinking I would have gotten better had I not tipped.
- aninhumer 10y ago
  > sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake If it's not fake, they're doing a bad job showing it. >the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry. Not angry, but it is an awkward thing to request, and I'd rather not have to. >I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service I absolutely disagree with that. I find reliance on tipping creates an alienating subservient relationship. No one is going to be genuine when they're depending on my opinion of them for their pay that evening.
10y ago

tomp 10y ago

Incentives matter, but a percentage based tip is simply the wrong incentive. It is the same amount of work for the waiter if I order $10 spaghetti and a $30 bottle of house wine, or if I order $50 steak and $300 bottle of Champagne. Why should s/he be rewarded for my own choices, based on no input or effort on his/her side whatsoever?!

notzorbo3 10y ago

In another thread someone mentioned how bad the service is in Dutch restaurants (which, being Dutch, I agree with). In the Netherlands tipping is not required but it's not uncommon to tip for good service. Yet the service is bad. So I don't believe tipping is such a good incentive. Unless perhaps you pay the waiters the absolute bare minimum and they basically need the tips to survive. It also doesn't really explain the fact that tipping in the US is basically mandatory, regardless of good service. If it's basically mandatory, where's the incentive to offer good service?

freeflight 10y ago

>Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). But this works both ways: If the service staff expects to be tipped regardless of the quality of service, then there's not much incentive for good service in the first place, because the customers are expected to tip anyway and bad service will just result in a marginally lower tip. If customers are not expected to tip at all, then the service staff has to put in some actual effort to get a tip, because their service needs to be so "exceptionally good" that the customer actually notices it, instead of just taking it for granted.

nommm-nommm 10y ago

I'm American. I've traveled enough and I've even lived outside of the US for a time. I have no idea how you can come to this conclusion, I've never had noticeably bad service outside the US and certainly nothing like "play[ing] telephone from one side of the room to the other." The only difference I notice is there's disturbingly fake niceness in the US and they rush you out after you're done eating. I guess if you are looking for someone to pretend to be your friend you'd get that. Personally, I'm just looking for a meal with my dining companions.