11 ms·

Ask HN: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4 at this moment?

106 points by utt 10y ago

I noticed Bootstrap 4 has not been released yet. Is it close to being released or should I still learn and use Bootstrap 3 at this moment?

pedalpete 10y ago
Learning Bootstrap 3 or 4 should take you very little time, I would suggest you don't learn either of them, but instead take the time to learn CSS (I am of course assuming you are not already a CSS wiz). You can look at the source of Bootstrap to see how they accomplished certain things if you'd like, but if you're doing anything more than prototyping (and even then), I feel there is very little benefit to using Bootstrap these days. Once I was told to ignore Bootstrap and just create my css myself (using Sass or CSS Modules) I find I'm making the same recommendations to others. It doesn't take long and you'll have a much better idea of what is happening on your page. Your html and css should end up being much smaller as well.
- peller 10y ago
  As a backend dev, I wish somebody had told me this exact advice earlier on in my career. CSS does have a fair amount of silly legacy shit, but it's really not all that bad once you dive in. Another good project's source code to learn from is Skeleton. (more simple than bootstrap) CSS version: https://github.com/dhg/Skeleton https://github.com/dhg/Skeleton Sass version: https://github.com/WhatsNewSaes/Skeleton-Sass https://github.com/WhatsNewSaes/Skeleton-Sass Edit: For more of a tutorial approach, check out http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/ http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/
  - kelnos 10y ago
    I'm a backend dev who did a little frontend here and there over a decade ago (and has sorta kept up since then out of curiosity). So I know CSS decently well, but still need to look things up here and there, and I certainly don't know all the bleeding-edge stuff. So yes, you should learn CSS, at least so you understand how web technologies work, in general. But not learning/using Bootstrap (as the parent recommends), if you think that will make your life easier, seems silly. I recently had to do a couple frontend projects for the first time in said over-a-decade-ago, and I found Bootstrap easy to pick up (it took like a half hour), and made things a lot easier than rolling my own CSS, for very little cost. To actually answer the OP's question, it depends on what you need to do. If you're starting new projects, just learn BS4. I did that back in February, and it worked out well for me. If you have to deal with some existing projects that use BS3, you'll of course need to learn that. But they're so easy to use, that if you already understand how HTML and CSS work (if you don't, of course that should be your step 1), you don't need to really "learn" it so much as read through the section on the layout model, and start building a page/site/app, looking at the reference docs as you go along when you want to add a dropdown or navbar or something.
  - dwaltrip 10y ago
    A great resource for digging into the nitty gritty fundamentals of layout (the hardest part of CSS, in my mind): http://book.mixu.net/css/ http://book.mixu.net/css/ I came across this when I was looking to gain a more complete mental model of how CSS layout works, as opposed to to the odd assortment of tricks, approaches, and googling I had been relying thus far.
    - ucacian 10y ago
      Thanks for sharing it. It looks pretty solid.
    - afarrell 10y ago
      Holy shit. I've been looking for something like this for half a decade.
  - magic_beans 10y ago
    I use skeleton for all my projects. It's light, highly customizable, and a breeze to use.
  - FrancoDiaz 10y ago
    Good stuff. I did notice that the normalize.css of Skeleton hadn't been updated since 2014. Is there a more update version of "normalize" out there, or is it still pretty much apropos today?
    - peller 10y ago
      Yea there have been updates to it, I dunno why they included it like that. What I do is use a forked version of Skeleton-Sass and include normalize.css as a dependency, so that npm always pulls down the latest version. The changes to normalize are listed here (Skeleton includes v3.0.2): https://github.com/necolas/normalize.css/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md https://github.com/necolas/normalize.css/blob/master/CHANGEL...
- scarface74 10y ago
  Yes and at the same time all devs should learn assembly so they have a better idea what's going on with their program.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - ditonal 10y ago
    I think, unlike assembly, CSS and browsers have improved some of the warts bootstrap was invented to address, do it's less helpful then it used to be (eg flexbox). Also, you can program without needing to learn assembly, but even with bootstrap, you need some CSS knowledge. Finally, learning a little assembly is not a terrible waste of time. I think most CS students still do.
  - peterkelly 10y ago
    My advice is to always understand the layer below what you're working with. Learning assembly is worthwhile if you're programming in C. Learning CSS is worthwhile if you're designing websites using Bootstrap. Perhaps even more importantly though, CSS, JavaScript, and HTML have a longevity that's tremendously longer than any given framework. My understanding of these technologies from 15 years ago remains relevant today, and although there's been a lot of new features added, I can build upon that knowledge to incrementally learn new things. And I'm confident that in another 15 years from now, knowledge of these web technologies that underpin all the frameworks will still be relevant. The same can't be said of Bootstrap 4.
    - at-fates-hands 10y ago
      >> My understanding of these technologies from 15 years ago remains relevant today, I have almost the exact opposite experience. I use next to nothing I learned eight years ago today when I'm building apps and websites. - Float based layouts? Nope, everything is a grid system these days. - Browser inconsistencies? Nope, they're almost all gone except if you still have to support legacy browsers. All the quirks of every IE version I used to have memorized? They're all but forgotten now and I don't need them. - I used to be a whiz with Flash. Nobody uses flash anymore. CSS animations, transitions, and better javascript rendering libraries have rendered my Flash skill set irrelevant. - I used to only have to worry about how my sites rendered on desktops. Now, everything is mobile, mobile, mobile and has to be responsive. More and more media queries to handle all those weird outliers of screen sizes. - I never had to think about UI/UX patterns. Now, it's almost all I do nowadays. Make sure this is touch enabled, how can a user use this app on a phone? Are you hiding menus when you should be showing them? Does a desktop user even know what a "hamburger" menu is? A/B testing out the ass to make absolutely sure you have the right color/shade/hue of a button so the user clicks on it. - When I first started, I never had to know Javascript. The places I worked had JS plugins all written for you. All you had to do was copy/paste a snippet and you were done. Prototypical inheritance? Closures? A functions "this" keyword and how it works? Never, ever had to know that stuff. Now I have to know all that, and a TON more. I'd say on average my skill set tends to do a 100% turnover about every 2-3 years. That's not to say I don't still use some of the basic understanding of HTML and CSS that I learned right off the bat such as selector classes and pseudo classes or the difference between elements and tags. But on the whole, I'm constantly having to learn new techniques, new standards, and generally anything that's being added to the HTML5 or CSS3 specs. I've actually quit jobs because I felt like what I needed to know to do the work was too easy and my skills were just eroding while I was there.
- csharpminor 10y ago
  Yes, you should learn CSS. Whether or not you should roll your own bespoke CSS/JS for interface components depends on the project. You will learn a lot more about CSS if you do it yourself. However, I encourage most folks to just use Bootstrap (or Foundation). They're not hard to learn, handle a lot of browser issues for you, are easily customizable, and are very well documented. If someone ever tells you that Bootstrap is "bloated" or that they "don't like its design choices", they've probably never seen http://getbootstrap.com/customize/ http://getbootstrap.com/customize/. As a developer, I strongly prefer picking up projects that just use an established framework. No, it's not hard to go through someone's crappy CSS/JS components, but it's just another thing to think about. Let someone else write the JS for dropdown interactions and just build your app.
  - jasim 10y ago
    If you're starting from a vector design (designed in Sketch for example) and need to convert it into a design, would you recommend using Bootstrap's components and overriding them, or is it easier to roll everything yourself?
    - csharpminor 10y ago
      This depends on how closely your designer's ideas can be mapped to existing Bootstrap components. If it's a very conceptual project (maybe an infographic or product advertisement) it may be better to start from scratch. Most of the time though, I try to limit the extent of my designer's vocabulary by having them use a sketch template and see how far they get. There are iOS, Android, and even a Bootstrap template that they can start with: https://www.sketchappsources.com/free-source/349-bootstrap-3-vector-ui-kit.html https://www.sketchappsources.com/free-source/349-bootstrap-3... All of those usually resolve into components that can be mapped to something in Bootstrap or Foundation. If your designer can't solve an interface problem with something from those templates, that's often a sign that there's a bigger problem in your app's structure.
- scarecrowbob 10y ago
  Yes, I think that if you don't know CSS then learning that (rather than bootstrap 3 vs 4) is the right answer. None of these technologies are all that hard. Like, they are easy enough that I don't understand it as a question... if you know CSS/ SASS and that stack, they take about an hour to figure out the main points and get rolling. But even if you don;t know hardly any CSS then they still take like a day or so, and the principles are pretty much the same. And equivalent question is "should I learn Sublime or Notepad++". If you understand what they do, pick one and if it stops being a thing you can use for whatever reason then learn the other, because the difficult part of understanding what id going on with them is conceptually the same between them.
- sharmi 10y ago
  True this. But * Learning CSS is not the first priority of a bootstrapped business. The cost associated with a 100kb of css is much lesser compared to creating a layout and all other styles. * Learning CSS to create a whole layout from scratch can be a daunting task for the uninitiated. * The best approach would be to start the project with Bootstrap, create a winning product, and iterate to find the best layout you need. Then in a subsequent release, you can redo the same using css. CSS Flex is very easy once you get the hang of it and you do not need any other css layout framework.
- nkkollaw 10y ago
  I don't think he's asking whether he should learn CSS or Bootstrap, just what version of Bootstrap he should learn.
  - lobo_tuerto 10y ago
    Yeah, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you are asking _that_ question is because you probably need to learn CSS first... I know CSS pretty well and Bootstrap versions are no longer an important concern to me (I can pick up either just by looking at the docs).
    - nkkollaw 10y ago
      I don't know why you would think that, honestly. He's basically asking if Bootstrap 4 is ready to be used. Nothing to do with knowing CSS.
- weavie 10y ago
  I think it would depend on how much time you are willing to put in and how far you want to go. If you are primarily a back end developer and you just want to quickly throw down a few prototype pages. If you will never really need more than that, just spending a couple of hours learning bootstrap will be a much better use of time than spending a few weeks learning all the intricacies of css. I spent years fighting with css. It was such a relief when Bootstrap and friends came out and just removed a whole layer of complexity from my occasional forays into the front end.
- pc86 10y ago
  > Q: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4? > A: Learn CSS This is not helpful and does not answer the question.
untilHellbanned 10y ago
We had the same thought over a year ago. We choose Bootstrap 4 but it was a big headache because the Javascript plugins were and still are quite busted. I would choose BS3.
doomsdaychicken 10y ago
Go ahead and start using Bootstrap 4, I've been using it in production and it's quite useful.
- CharlesW 10y ago
  I'm also using Bootstrap 4a5 without issues on a small site that I initially upgraded from Bootstrap 3 mostly out of curiosity, and then pushed live when I didn't discover any major issues. Since it's a "major rewrite of almost the entire project"[1], I can't recommend that new Bootstrap users invest any time in Bootstrap 3. [1] https://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/migration/ https://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/migration/
ams6110 10y ago
It doesn't matter. Because no matter what tech you use in the web app space, it will all be obsolete in a year or two. Your apps will never be done, because the sand will shift underneath them. You'll need to continually update them to keep them working, or abandon them.
- erklik 10y ago
  That's a good outlook on life.
- peterkelly 10y ago
  I think it's better to ignore the world of framework hype and just code to the browser APIs as described by the standards. You can basically guarantee that your site will still work ten years from now and that your knowledge will still be relevant (though you'll need to keep up to date with new features e.g. flexbox). I personally find it more work to learn frameworks and deal with the leaky abstractions inherent in them than to work with the browser directly. Especially when I hit a case where I want to do something that the framework authors didn't cater for and I end up having to go down to the browser APIs to implement it anyway. In the short term, it's a bigger investment to learn the underlying technologies, but in the long term it pays off big time, since you don't end up being stuck with something that sounded great two years ago when you started your project but is no longer maintained.
- dimino 10y ago
  Why wash your clothes? Make your bed? Brush your teeth? You're going to be in the dirt eventually anyway...
sathomasga 10y ago
FWIW I'd never use either on a production site. But for a quick-and-dirty internal site or to just play around with, I can't think of any reason not to use 4.
- webbrahmin 10y ago
  Please elaborate why you don't use them on a production site. It will be really helpful.
  - markdown 10y ago
    BS is ridiculously bloated.
    - nkkollaw 10y ago
      You should take a look at Semantic UI if you want bloated.
  - sathomasga 10y ago
    The "CSS Frameworks" like Bootstrap, Foundation, etc. tend to be very opinionated and therefore, for some aspects, difficult to customize. The production sites on which I've worked generally want to project their own unique identity and not look like the "million other Bootstrap sites on the internet." It often ends up being harder to override the BS/Foundation/etc. styles than simply creating a framework from scratch. Also, as others have noted, the large frameworks tend to be ... well ... large. That can definitely drag down performance if you're forcing a bunch of CSS into a browser that isn't actually needed by the site.
ebbv 10y ago
The question I'd ask myself is are there any features of 4 you really need right now? If not use 3, as it is more production ready. Using 4 right now you are potentially walking into a minefield. You might make it through ok but you might not.
mightybyte 10y ago
It depends on what you want to optimize for. If you're starting a startup and you anticipate having a dedicated design team, I think you're better off making your markup match your domain and hand-rolling the CSS instead of using a framework like Bootstrap. This is the ideal approach IMO because it lets you much more effectively keep the styling out of the markup and in the stylesheets. CSS frameworks by definition require you to put styling in your markup. But if you're just trying to bang out a small project quickly and have it look nice without needing to muck with CSS too much, then a framework can be very useful. These days I prefer Semantic UI over Bootstrap: http://semantic-ui.com/ http://semantic-ui.com/
- gkop 10y ago
  > CSS frameworks by definition require you to put styling in your markup. How do mixin-based CSS frameworks require you to put styling in your markup?
  - mightybyte 10y ago
    Oh, I might not be aware of that type of CSS framework. Can you point me to some examples? I was thinking of frameworks like Bootstrap and Semantic UI.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      FYI: https://coderwall.com/p/wixovg/bootstrap-without-all-the-debt https://coderwall.com/p/wixovg/bootstrap-without-all-the-deb... I.e., used properly, Bootstrap itself is "that type of CSS framework".
      - mightybyte 10y ago
        Thanks! That's fantastic. CSS frameworks should talk about this idea more!
robertlf 10y ago
Given that they've been working on 4 for so long, I'd learn 3 now since it works and the migrate to 4 when it's ready. And for the record, I'm tired of everyone bashing Bootstrap. I'm using it for a production site and I love it. I'm a one-man shop and I need to earn revenue now. I can't afford to spend the next six months learning the quirks of CSS and its crummy layout techniques. Bootstrap has allowed me to create a responsive website that works well across all devices. It also looks much more professional than what I could have done on my own, not to mention the fact that my site looks much better than those of my competitors. I'm grateful that Bootstrap is around.
- harrisreynolds 10y ago
  +1. Bootstrap has helped me immensely for many of the same reasons. What is your app or site?
- kelnos 10y ago
  I had to build something back in February (hadn't done any real webdev in >10 years), and picked up BS4 in a half hour and started using it in production. No issues doing so; the "alpha" moniker seems to be the developers erring on the side of caution and reserving themselves the right to make user-visible changes.
hoodoof 10y ago
When you start on an old technology you instantly incur a learning debt. i.e. you will have to learn the new thing at some time in the future so may as well not incur that debt and go straight to the future.
- rrhyne 10y ago
  When you start on a new technology, you have to endure the breaking changes, lack of community support, and lack of skilled operators. You also burn one of your technology chits. You get just a few as a startup. Selecting all bleeding edge technology could kill you. Would love to know where I read that. :D
jmcmahon443 10y ago
I've been using 4 for production. Pretty much the same thing.
pryelluw 10y ago
What browsers do you need to support? Version #4 dropped support for IE9. If IE is important for your business then version #3 is currently the better option. Now, learning bootstrap is not too bad. All you need to donis figure out how it defines the layout grid, how it handles margins, padding, and gutters, and how to use different classes to make the site responsive. Should take a couple of days. Ping me if you need help. :)
mundiff 10y ago
I'd start with 3 then migrate to 4. Also, learn Flexbox as it will be enabled by default in BS4. FlexboxFroggy.com is a nice introduction. There's one more breakpoint in BS4. The css class to make images responsive has changed for the third time in 3 releases. Other than that, basically the same. I've been toying with it.
isaac_is_goat 10y ago
I've used BS2 and 3 in the past, and wouldn't recommend bootstrap at all these days. You're better off with something like Bourbon which is much more modular and lightweight and doesn't force you into a certain "way" and eventually down the "override everything" rabbithole.
vayarajesh 10y ago
I started using bootstrap from Bootstrap 1 and it was not difficult to start using 2 or 3 - the basic conceptual framework remains almost the same and most of the implementation anyway requires the Bootstrap documentation open on the side for reference. However, I would recommend to move away from Bootstrap to Material design for example, I feel (after using both) Material design is more well though framework and it also has bindings with Angular (that is if you are building angular apps) through [angular-material](https://material.angularjs.org/latest/ https://material.angularjs.org/latest/). There is also standalone framework [getmdl.io](https://getmdl.io/started https://getmdl.io/started) Then there is a very detail documentation on how to think like [Material design](https://material.google.com/ https://material.google.com/) way by Google . Checkout the components section from the menu, it is really nice they way explain the theory behind why each component the way it is
nodesocket 10y ago
Take a look at Bulma[1]. I prefer its simplicity and flexbox first approach. http://bulma.io/ http://bulma.io/
- forgottenacc57 10y ago
  Bootstrap 4 is Flexbox only.
- victormustar 10y ago
  +1 for bulma, everything is better: design, implementation, documentation, semantics, ...
ggregoire 10y ago
Do people really "learn" Bootstrap? I've been using the version 1, 2 and 3 and I've never felt like I needed to learn it. Usually I just open the doc when I need to use something.
- MojtabaNV 10y ago
  Me too!
- dimino 10y ago
  Yeah, people are saying, "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? Why can't I just use Bootstrap because I don't feel like designing an app, and Bootstrap is the fastest way to get a consistent layout on web and mobile? What's it got to do with learning at all?
  - 3131s 10y ago
    > "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? No, it's not. I don't want to start a CSS flame war, but at least for layout / positioning I struggle every single time with CSS, especially on sites with dynamic content. CSS is my least favorite part of the web development stack by far.
    - k__ 10y ago
      True, but since I startend using CSS frameworks I didn't have too write much of it.
    - imafish 10y ago
      I agree whole-heartedly. Frontend web development is broken in that sense. In no way does it make sense to define a layout through a Stylesheet. Most of the other frontend "languages" get this. HTML needs layout tags, e.g. for grids and panels.
    - lisivka 10y ago
      Why not to use Flexbox then? http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox
KayL 10y ago
To answer this question, I'm more interested in how do you learn it first. All these frameworks are just COPY & PASTE the pre-made code. For example, you wanna button in that style: http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/buttons/ http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/buttons/ Copy that code and paste into your HTML. Whatever v3 or v4 are the same way. If your learning way is memorizing the code without checking the document each time, then I'd say v3.
- nkkollaw 10y ago
  Copying and pasting wouldn't work, because many times you need to customize things. Also, what a nightmare would be to look it up every time you need to use a component! Of course learning it means to learn components by heart, just like you don't look up built-in functions every time when you use a programming language.
  - KayL 10y ago
    Is it just me? I don't recite the built-in functions (intentionally) before I code. I will look into doc when I want to find a shortcut. It's very efficiently. Take Bootstrap as an example, I open the following doc: http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/alerts/ http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/alerts/ If I want a Modal, I will check Modal doc (accurately, I jump to CODE PATTERN and copy it, not starting to read doc explanation.) and use it. After few times, you will memorize the basic by heart. (understands the basic, then you can create your snippets or something. Myself, I still open the doc to see the visual examples. Anyway, I coded with a lot of frameworks in different projects at the same time, not just bound to Bootstrap. You need to find your best workflow yourself) EDITED: "customize things" seems not suitable to the questioner at the moment. If he understands basic CSS, he may not ask this question. :)
    - nkkollaw 10y ago
      I don't know if it's just you, but if I had to do that I would take about 10 times a long as I take right now to build something. It's much easier to memorize them in my opinion.
craigvn 10y ago
Learn both, it's not rocket surgery.
ShirsenduK 10y ago
Bootstrap 4 with Flexbox! Because thats the future :) I'm using it on a production site; https://www.maplenest.com https://www.maplenest.com and its fairly stable.
- sgt 10y ago
  Just a note - the top left MapleNest logo looks pixelated/blurry on a retina screen.
kin 10y ago
I think it would be valuable to you to give HN a little more insight to your particular set of skills and your purpose. I say this because I personally have dived head first into using a CSS framework without first fully understanding a few key CSS fundamentals. This made front-end work very hacky and involved a lot of trial and error. Further along the line I've also been burned once or twice by adopting a CSS framework, only to have breaking changes from future updates. So really it depends on your situation, whatever it may be.
sfilargi 10y ago
The differences are not that big to make a difference in "learning". If your question was should I use 3 or 4, then my answer would be, depends on your project. But for learning, the version doesn't make much of a difference as the general principles are the same.
citrusx 10y ago
Another vote for "Consider alternatives". I happen to like Semantic UI a lot, but you can also consider something smaller and less proscriptive than Bootstrap, like Skeleton or UIkit.
kyriakos 10y ago
If you don't plan to support IE9 then by all means use Bootstrap 4. But keep in mind that Bootstrap (or any CSS framework) are not a perfect solution for not learning CSS. Sooner or later you will need to modify bootstrap or create your own styles.
- nkkollaw 10y ago
  How do you know he plans to not learn CSS, or he doesn't know it already?
redlofa 10y ago
Everyone opting for "do your own CSS" and not using a framework, is absolutely a horrible idea. You will not be the only one writing CSS for long term for your app I assume, any new member will find it extremely difficult where to modify following some good standards. They might miss a lot of things or overdo things perhaps. Regarding learning BS3 or BS4, I'd opt for BS4. All you have to know what things BS4 provide and use them appropriately. Not to mention, some fairly good CSS knowledge is also a pre-requisite. One of the themes we recently used is startUI (google for it). It's on BS4 and the components were easy to integrate in apps.
nkkollaw 10y ago
I'll actually answer your question. I've been using Bootstrap 4, since it's already stable and will come out in a few months anyway, so I won't have to upgrade anytime soon. If you use libraries that depend on Bootstrap, you might want to check compatibility. I was using Bootswatch and the developer didn't upgrade the code to Bootstrap 4 until a few weeks ago. Other than that, I see no reason not to use the latest version. I'm surprised by all the comments saying that you don't have to learn Bootstrap but you can just look up the components every time you need to use them, suggesting you use Skeleton, or that if you use Bootstrap you don't want to learn/know CSS. Nonsense.
- oelmekki 10y ago
  There's also an other reason to go with the "almost released" one when starting a new project: bootstrap has been historically painful to migrate. Upgrading major bootstrap version means changing class names in whole codebase (like the classes for grid system), changing html code for some components which have been updated, and having to remove other components altogether and go with your own sauce because components were removed. This has been the case for all previous major bumps, and there is no sign of it being any different this time, so better save a migration and go straight with bs-4.
  - nkkollaw 10y ago
    Definitely. The other day I was looking at Bootstrap 3 documentation by mistake instead of Bootstrap 4 and it was completely different, with some components missing altogether.
Brajeshwar 10y ago
On a serious note, I believe the befitting proverbial advice is, "Give a Man a Fish, and You Feed Him for a Day. Teach a Man To Fish, and You Feed Him for a Lifetime." You said "learning", so I'd still suggest learning the actual CSS. Of course, when you become a bit comfortable with it, you'd have already learned Bootstrap. Here is how I'd for; - Use Bootstrap 4 or even 3 to learn your CSS. Use it, go through the source codes and learn from there. - Keep doing CSS (feel free to try other frameworks too) and you should be on your way. The analogy I can find is that quite a lot of people "learned" jQuery. Then, they figured out that it is, well, JavaScript. They got intrigued, went backward and learned JavaScript. Many enterprising developers advance and 'learn' other frameworks too. I used to be in the camp where my take was, "learn the actual raw CSS and JavaScript - that's the way to learn." But my experience dealing with juniors, and new developers is that not everyone can just learn something. In fact, a lot of people do not know how to learn things the right way. They need to first learn to learn new things. So, take it easy on yourself, start with something you can start off (and produce something you're proud of) and begin learning real CSS in the process. Well, my team specialize mostly in fixing projects shoved down by developers using Bootstrap, where the enterprises needed to go to market quickly. Once they reach critical bloat-stage, we go in to clean-up, make the sites 10-30 times faster by removing all of Bootstrap and other frameworks and staying really lean (use a minimal framework or a very low footprint one.) We, sometimes, end up developing the "Bootstraps" for these companies.
- nkkollaw 10y ago
  How do you know he doesn't know CSS already? Why preaching about learning CSS while he's just asking about Bootstrap 3 vs. Bootstrap 4?
  - Brajeshwar 10y ago
    Ah! My bad. My assumption is that if someone is asking if s/he should learn Bootstrap 3 or 4, s/he might still be trying to figure out what to learn to get to the next step in HTML/CSS/JS development. If s/he is already proficient with CSS, s/he might not be asking that question. I might have extrapolated this thing a bit, haven't I!
dumindunuwan 10y ago
you can learn it within 1-2 hours, start with B4. If you want to lean more check the source code if it's css. Also check http://semantic-ui.com/ http://semantic-ui.com/ , it has more widgets and styles. follow UI/UX trends to see how things can be organize in different ways, Pinterest might help you to find/follow more designs.
Dowwie 10y ago
You could have learned either in the time you spent asking this question and reading the responses
vampaz 10y ago
You don't learn Bootstrap. You learn CSS and HTML and you just use Bootstrap.
boraturan 10y ago
I am in Production with 4. No problem.
felixis 10y ago
Ditch both. Learn CSS fundamentals and for a good framework, head for Semantic UI
desiredpersona 10y ago
Learn html and css by using tachyons. tachyons.io
agentgt 10y ago
I can't help but ask a bigger picture question: "What are you trying to do or what is your end goal"? If you are trying to roll out some new software for a startup or project and you want it to look good and semi unique then I recommend just buying a theme with all the necessary components (dashboard, graphs, whatever) you need. Themes are pretty cheap these days. Usually one of these themes has picked some sort of "foundation" library and you can then learn that. Basically force yourself to pick by necessity and not what the "future" should be...
cmoscoso 10y ago
What's Bootstrap?
beat 10y ago
If you don't know either, the "learn Bootstrap" thing will be a much bigger deal than whether you learn 3 or 4. This is doubly true if you don't know CSS in the first place.
FrancoDiaz 10y ago
I do a lot of front-end development these days, but I still feel that my CSS skills are weak. CSS is (for whatever reason) hard for me. Does anybody have any CSS learning resources that have exercises? There's plenty of books out there, but I really need a guided, hands-on learning experience.
wattt 10y ago
The answer you want is to use Bootstrap 3. The reason is that you are new and tutorials will be written for that version. Although generally speaking I would start with 4, you also don't want to burn out on stupid unfinished/incomplete work. Don't burn out when you are just starting!
dyeje 10y ago
I doubt there will be much changed in terms of core functionality and use, so yes just go ahead and learn whatever is available currently.
harrisreynolds 10y ago
I'd learn Bootstrap 3 and then just migrate over to B4 later (if at all). The key is to learn the concepts... and those won't change much even if some details do. I'm following this approach with Easele (https://www.easele.com/ https://www.easele.com/).
pknerd 10y ago
I'd recommend you to learn BS3 as there are more tutorials available. You can always switch to BS4. BS3 is not something that's getting obsolete.
rajangdavis 10y ago
If you have time, force yourself to do a small project with both. Whichever feels more natural to you is probably the route you should take. Personally, I would be hesitant to go with v4 because of losing support for older IE browsers HOWEVER v4 is built on flexbox, so it should in theory be a little bit more of a sane implementation. I would do some more research on what are the differences, it seems like with v4, they are making the API a little bit more simpler, but I haven't dived into it yet.
rootme 10y ago
Bootstrap 5 Will be Best to learn in the future.
steffenmllr 10y ago
If you don't know the differences between versions 3 or 4 yet... My recommendation would be to start with bootstrap 4. You'll learn the downsides by the requirements of your project... maybe this is the hard way but that's the way to learn... Facing problems...

106 points by utt 10y ago

I noticed Bootstrap 4 has not been released yet. Is it close to being released or should I still learn and use Bootstrap 3 at this moment?

pedalpete 10y ago

Learning Bootstrap 3 or 4 should take you very little time, I would suggest you don't learn either of them, but instead take the time to learn CSS (I am of course assuming you are not already a CSS wiz). You can look at the source of Bootstrap to see how they accomplished certain things if you'd like, but if you're doing anything more than prototyping (and even then), I feel there is very little benefit to using Bootstrap these days. Once I was told to ignore Bootstrap and just create my css myself (using Sass or CSS Modules) I find I'm making the same recommendations to others. It doesn't take long and you'll have a much better idea of what is happening on your page. Your html and css should end up being much smaller as well.

peller 10y ago
As a backend dev, I wish somebody had told me this exact advice earlier on in my career. CSS does have a fair amount of silly legacy shit, but it's really not all that bad once you dive in. Another good project's source code to learn from is Skeleton. (more simple than bootstrap) CSS version: https://github.com/dhg/Skeleton https://github.com/dhg/Skeleton Sass version: https://github.com/WhatsNewSaes/Skeleton-Sass https://github.com/WhatsNewSaes/Skeleton-Sass Edit: For more of a tutorial approach, check out http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/ http://learn.shayhowe.com/html-css/
- kelnos 10y ago
  I'm a backend dev who did a little frontend here and there over a decade ago (and has sorta kept up since then out of curiosity). So I know CSS decently well, but still need to look things up here and there, and I certainly don't know all the bleeding-edge stuff. So yes, you should learn CSS, at least so you understand how web technologies work, in general. But not learning/using Bootstrap (as the parent recommends), if you think that will make your life easier, seems silly. I recently had to do a couple frontend projects for the first time in said over-a-decade-ago, and I found Bootstrap easy to pick up (it took like a half hour), and made things a lot easier than rolling my own CSS, for very little cost. To actually answer the OP's question, it depends on what you need to do. If you're starting new projects, just learn BS4. I did that back in February, and it worked out well for me. If you have to deal with some existing projects that use BS3, you'll of course need to learn that. But they're so easy to use, that if you already understand how HTML and CSS work (if you don't, of course that should be your step 1), you don't need to really "learn" it so much as read through the section on the layout model, and start building a page/site/app, looking at the reference docs as you go along when you want to add a dropdown or navbar or something.
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  A great resource for digging into the nitty gritty fundamentals of layout (the hardest part of CSS, in my mind): http://book.mixu.net/css/ http://book.mixu.net/css/ I came across this when I was looking to gain a more complete mental model of how CSS layout works, as opposed to to the odd assortment of tricks, approaches, and googling I had been relying thus far.
  - ucacian 10y ago
    Thanks for sharing it. It looks pretty solid.
  - afarrell 10y ago
    Holy shit. I've been looking for something like this for half a decade.
- magic_beans 10y ago
  I use skeleton for all my projects. It's light, highly customizable, and a breeze to use.
- FrancoDiaz 10y ago
  Good stuff. I did notice that the normalize.css of Skeleton hadn't been updated since 2014. Is there a more update version of "normalize" out there, or is it still pretty much apropos today?
  - peller 10y ago
    Yea there have been updates to it, I dunno why they included it like that. What I do is use a forked version of Skeleton-Sass and include normalize.css as a dependency, so that npm always pulls down the latest version. The changes to normalize are listed here (Skeleton includes v3.0.2): https://github.com/necolas/normalize.css/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md https://github.com/necolas/normalize.css/blob/master/CHANGEL...
scarface74 10y ago
Yes and at the same time all devs should learn assembly so they have a better idea what's going on with their program.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ditonal 10y ago
  I think, unlike assembly, CSS and browsers have improved some of the warts bootstrap was invented to address, do it's less helpful then it used to be (eg flexbox). Also, you can program without needing to learn assembly, but even with bootstrap, you need some CSS knowledge. Finally, learning a little assembly is not a terrible waste of time. I think most CS students still do.
- peterkelly 10y ago
  My advice is to always understand the layer below what you're working with. Learning assembly is worthwhile if you're programming in C. Learning CSS is worthwhile if you're designing websites using Bootstrap. Perhaps even more importantly though, CSS, JavaScript, and HTML have a longevity that's tremendously longer than any given framework. My understanding of these technologies from 15 years ago remains relevant today, and although there's been a lot of new features added, I can build upon that knowledge to incrementally learn new things. And I'm confident that in another 15 years from now, knowledge of these web technologies that underpin all the frameworks will still be relevant. The same can't be said of Bootstrap 4.
  - at-fates-hands 10y ago
    >> My understanding of these technologies from 15 years ago remains relevant today, I have almost the exact opposite experience. I use next to nothing I learned eight years ago today when I'm building apps and websites. - Float based layouts? Nope, everything is a grid system these days. - Browser inconsistencies? Nope, they're almost all gone except if you still have to support legacy browsers. All the quirks of every IE version I used to have memorized? They're all but forgotten now and I don't need them. - I used to be a whiz with Flash. Nobody uses flash anymore. CSS animations, transitions, and better javascript rendering libraries have rendered my Flash skill set irrelevant. - I used to only have to worry about how my sites rendered on desktops. Now, everything is mobile, mobile, mobile and has to be responsive. More and more media queries to handle all those weird outliers of screen sizes. - I never had to think about UI/UX patterns. Now, it's almost all I do nowadays. Make sure this is touch enabled, how can a user use this app on a phone? Are you hiding menus when you should be showing them? Does a desktop user even know what a "hamburger" menu is? A/B testing out the ass to make absolutely sure you have the right color/shade/hue of a button so the user clicks on it. - When I first started, I never had to know Javascript. The places I worked had JS plugins all written for you. All you had to do was copy/paste a snippet and you were done. Prototypical inheritance? Closures? A functions "this" keyword and how it works? Never, ever had to know that stuff. Now I have to know all that, and a TON more. I'd say on average my skill set tends to do a 100% turnover about every 2-3 years. That's not to say I don't still use some of the basic understanding of HTML and CSS that I learned right off the bat such as selector classes and pseudo classes or the difference between elements and tags. But on the whole, I'm constantly having to learn new techniques, new standards, and generally anything that's being added to the HTML5 or CSS3 specs. I've actually quit jobs because I felt like what I needed to know to do the work was too easy and my skills were just eroding while I was there.
csharpminor 10y ago
Yes, you should learn CSS. Whether or not you should roll your own bespoke CSS/JS for interface components depends on the project. You will learn a lot more about CSS if you do it yourself. However, I encourage most folks to just use Bootstrap (or Foundation). They're not hard to learn, handle a lot of browser issues for you, are easily customizable, and are very well documented. If someone ever tells you that Bootstrap is "bloated" or that they "don't like its design choices", they've probably never seen http://getbootstrap.com/customize/ http://getbootstrap.com/customize/. As a developer, I strongly prefer picking up projects that just use an established framework. No, it's not hard to go through someone's crappy CSS/JS components, but it's just another thing to think about. Let someone else write the JS for dropdown interactions and just build your app.
- jasim 10y ago
  If you're starting from a vector design (designed in Sketch for example) and need to convert it into a design, would you recommend using Bootstrap's components and overriding them, or is it easier to roll everything yourself?
  - csharpminor 10y ago
    This depends on how closely your designer's ideas can be mapped to existing Bootstrap components. If it's a very conceptual project (maybe an infographic or product advertisement) it may be better to start from scratch. Most of the time though, I try to limit the extent of my designer's vocabulary by having them use a sketch template and see how far they get. There are iOS, Android, and even a Bootstrap template that they can start with: https://www.sketchappsources.com/free-source/349-bootstrap-3-vector-ui-kit.html https://www.sketchappsources.com/free-source/349-bootstrap-3... All of those usually resolve into components that can be mapped to something in Bootstrap or Foundation. If your designer can't solve an interface problem with something from those templates, that's often a sign that there's a bigger problem in your app's structure.
scarecrowbob 10y ago
Yes, I think that if you don't know CSS then learning that (rather than bootstrap 3 vs 4) is the right answer. None of these technologies are all that hard. Like, they are easy enough that I don't understand it as a question... if you know CSS/ SASS and that stack, they take about an hour to figure out the main points and get rolling. But even if you don;t know hardly any CSS then they still take like a day or so, and the principles are pretty much the same. And equivalent question is "should I learn Sublime or Notepad++". If you understand what they do, pick one and if it stops being a thing you can use for whatever reason then learn the other, because the difficult part of understanding what id going on with them is conceptually the same between them.
sharmi 10y ago
True this. But * Learning CSS is not the first priority of a bootstrapped business. The cost associated with a 100kb of css is much lesser compared to creating a layout and all other styles. * Learning CSS to create a whole layout from scratch can be a daunting task for the uninitiated. * The best approach would be to start the project with Bootstrap, create a winning product, and iterate to find the best layout you need. Then in a subsequent release, you can redo the same using css. CSS Flex is very easy once you get the hang of it and you do not need any other css layout framework.
nkkollaw 10y ago
I don't think he's asking whether he should learn CSS or Bootstrap, just what version of Bootstrap he should learn.
- lobo_tuerto 10y ago
  Yeah, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that if you are asking _that_ question is because you probably need to learn CSS first... I know CSS pretty well and Bootstrap versions are no longer an important concern to me (I can pick up either just by looking at the docs).
  - nkkollaw 10y ago
    I don't know why you would think that, honestly. He's basically asking if Bootstrap 4 is ready to be used. Nothing to do with knowing CSS.
weavie 10y ago
I think it would depend on how much time you are willing to put in and how far you want to go. If you are primarily a back end developer and you just want to quickly throw down a few prototype pages. If you will never really need more than that, just spending a couple of hours learning bootstrap will be a much better use of time than spending a few weeks learning all the intricacies of css. I spent years fighting with css. It was such a relief when Bootstrap and friends came out and just removed a whole layer of complexity from my occasional forays into the front end.
pc86 10y ago
> Q: Should I learn Bootstrap 3 or 4? > A: Learn CSS This is not helpful and does not answer the question.

untilHellbanned 10y ago

We had the same thought over a year ago. We choose Bootstrap 4 but it was a big headache because the Javascript plugins were and still are quite busted. I would choose BS3.

doomsdaychicken 10y ago

Go ahead and start using Bootstrap 4, I've been using it in production and it's quite useful.

CharlesW 10y ago
I'm also using Bootstrap 4a5 without issues on a small site that I initially upgraded from Bootstrap 3 mostly out of curiosity, and then pushed live when I didn't discover any major issues. Since it's a "major rewrite of almost the entire project"[1], I can't recommend that new Bootstrap users invest any time in Bootstrap 3. [1] https://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/migration/ https://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/migration/

ams6110 10y ago

It doesn't matter. Because no matter what tech you use in the web app space, it will all be obsolete in a year or two. Your apps will never be done, because the sand will shift underneath them. You'll need to continually update them to keep them working, or abandon them.

erklik 10y ago
That's a good outlook on life.
peterkelly 10y ago
I think it's better to ignore the world of framework hype and just code to the browser APIs as described by the standards. You can basically guarantee that your site will still work ten years from now and that your knowledge will still be relevant (though you'll need to keep up to date with new features e.g. flexbox). I personally find it more work to learn frameworks and deal with the leaky abstractions inherent in them than to work with the browser directly. Especially when I hit a case where I want to do something that the framework authors didn't cater for and I end up having to go down to the browser APIs to implement it anyway. In the short term, it's a bigger investment to learn the underlying technologies, but in the long term it pays off big time, since you don't end up being stuck with something that sounded great two years ago when you started your project but is no longer maintained.
dimino 10y ago
Why wash your clothes? Make your bed? Brush your teeth? You're going to be in the dirt eventually anyway...

sathomasga 10y ago

FWIW I'd never use either on a production site. But for a quick-and-dirty internal site or to just play around with, I can't think of any reason not to use 4.

webbrahmin 10y ago
Please elaborate why you don't use them on a production site. It will be really helpful.
- markdown 10y ago
  BS is ridiculously bloated.
  - nkkollaw 10y ago
    You should take a look at Semantic UI if you want bloated.
- sathomasga 10y ago
  The "CSS Frameworks" like Bootstrap, Foundation, etc. tend to be very opinionated and therefore, for some aspects, difficult to customize. The production sites on which I've worked generally want to project their own unique identity and not look like the "million other Bootstrap sites on the internet." It often ends up being harder to override the BS/Foundation/etc. styles than simply creating a framework from scratch. Also, as others have noted, the large frameworks tend to be ... well ... large. That can definitely drag down performance if you're forcing a bunch of CSS into a browser that isn't actually needed by the site.

ebbv 10y ago

The question I'd ask myself is are there any features of 4 you really need right now? If not use 3, as it is more production ready. Using 4 right now you are potentially walking into a minefield. You might make it through ok but you might not.

mightybyte 10y ago

It depends on what you want to optimize for. If you're starting a startup and you anticipate having a dedicated design team, I think you're better off making your markup match your domain and hand-rolling the CSS instead of using a framework like Bootstrap. This is the ideal approach IMO because it lets you much more effectively keep the styling out of the markup and in the stylesheets. CSS frameworks by definition require you to put styling in your markup. But if you're just trying to bang out a small project quickly and have it look nice without needing to muck with CSS too much, then a framework can be very useful. These days I prefer Semantic UI over Bootstrap: http://semantic-ui.com/ http://semantic-ui.com/

gkop 10y ago
> CSS frameworks by definition require you to put styling in your markup. How do mixin-based CSS frameworks require you to put styling in your markup?
- mightybyte 10y ago
  Oh, I might not be aware of that type of CSS framework. Can you point me to some examples? I was thinking of frameworks like Bootstrap and Semantic UI.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    FYI: https://coderwall.com/p/wixovg/bootstrap-without-all-the-debt https://coderwall.com/p/wixovg/bootstrap-without-all-the-deb... I.e., used properly, Bootstrap itself is "that type of CSS framework".
    - mightybyte 10y ago
      Thanks! That's fantastic. CSS frameworks should talk about this idea more!

robertlf 10y ago

Given that they've been working on 4 for so long, I'd learn 3 now since it works and the migrate to 4 when it's ready. And for the record, I'm tired of everyone bashing Bootstrap. I'm using it for a production site and I love it. I'm a one-man shop and I need to earn revenue now. I can't afford to spend the next six months learning the quirks of CSS and its crummy layout techniques. Bootstrap has allowed me to create a responsive website that works well across all devices. It also looks much more professional than what I could have done on my own, not to mention the fact that my site looks much better than those of my competitors. I'm grateful that Bootstrap is around.

harrisreynolds 10y ago
+1. Bootstrap has helped me immensely for many of the same reasons. What is your app or site?
kelnos 10y ago
I had to build something back in February (hadn't done any real webdev in >10 years), and picked up BS4 in a half hour and started using it in production. No issues doing so; the "alpha" moniker seems to be the developers erring on the side of caution and reserving themselves the right to make user-visible changes.

hoodoof 10y ago

When you start on an old technology you instantly incur a learning debt. i.e. you will have to learn the new thing at some time in the future so may as well not incur that debt and go straight to the future.

rrhyne 10y ago
When you start on a new technology, you have to endure the breaking changes, lack of community support, and lack of skilled operators. You also burn one of your technology chits. You get just a few as a startup. Selecting all bleeding edge technology could kill you. Would love to know where I read that. :D

jmcmahon443 10y ago

I've been using 4 for production. Pretty much the same thing.

pryelluw 10y ago

What browsers do you need to support? Version #4 dropped support for IE9. If IE is important for your business then version #3 is currently the better option. Now, learning bootstrap is not too bad. All you need to donis figure out how it defines the layout grid, how it handles margins, padding, and gutters, and how to use different classes to make the site responsive. Should take a couple of days. Ping me if you need help. :)

mundiff 10y ago

I'd start with 3 then migrate to 4. Also, learn Flexbox as it will be enabled by default in BS4. FlexboxFroggy.com is a nice introduction. There's one more breakpoint in BS4. The css class to make images responsive has changed for the third time in 3 releases. Other than that, basically the same. I've been toying with it.

isaac_is_goat 10y ago

I've used BS2 and 3 in the past, and wouldn't recommend bootstrap at all these days. You're better off with something like Bourbon which is much more modular and lightweight and doesn't force you into a certain "way" and eventually down the "override everything" rabbithole.

vayarajesh 10y ago

I started using bootstrap from Bootstrap 1 and it was not difficult to start using 2 or 3 - the basic conceptual framework remains almost the same and most of the implementation anyway requires the Bootstrap documentation open on the side for reference. However, I would recommend to move away from Bootstrap to Material design for example, I feel (after using both) Material design is more well though framework and it also has bindings with Angular (that is if you are building angular apps) through [angular-material](https://material.angularjs.org/latest/ https://material.angularjs.org/latest/). There is also standalone framework [getmdl.io](https://getmdl.io/started https://getmdl.io/started) Then there is a very detail documentation on how to think like [Material design](https://material.google.com/ https://material.google.com/) way by Google . Checkout the components section from the menu, it is really nice they way explain the theory behind why each component the way it is

nodesocket 10y ago

Take a look at Bulma[1]. I prefer its simplicity and flexbox first approach. http://bulma.io/ http://bulma.io/

forgottenacc57 10y ago
Bootstrap 4 is Flexbox only.
victormustar 10y ago
+1 for bulma, everything is better: design, implementation, documentation, semantics, ...

ggregoire 10y ago

Do people really "learn" Bootstrap? I've been using the version 1, 2 and 3 and I've never felt like I needed to learn it. Usually I just open the doc when I need to use something.

MojtabaNV 10y ago
Me too!
dimino 10y ago
Yeah, people are saying, "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? Why can't I just use Bootstrap because I don't feel like designing an app, and Bootstrap is the fastest way to get a consistent layout on web and mobile? What's it got to do with learning at all?
- 3131s 10y ago
  > "No, learn CSS!" but isn't CSS exceedingly simple? No, it's not. I don't want to start a CSS flame war, but at least for layout / positioning I struggle every single time with CSS, especially on sites with dynamic content. CSS is my least favorite part of the web development stack by far.
  - k__ 10y ago
    True, but since I startend using CSS frameworks I didn't have too write much of it.
  - imafish 10y ago
    I agree whole-heartedly. Frontend web development is broken in that sense. In no way does it make sense to define a layout through a Stylesheet. Most of the other frontend "languages" get this. HTML needs layout tags, e.g. for grids and panels.
  - lisivka 10y ago
    Why not to use Flexbox then? http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox

KayL 10y ago

To answer this question, I'm more interested in how do you learn it first. All these frameworks are just COPY & PASTE the pre-made code. For example, you wanna button in that style: http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/buttons/ http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/buttons/ Copy that code and paste into your HTML. Whatever v3 or v4 are the same way. If your learning way is memorizing the code without checking the document each time, then I'd say v3.

nkkollaw 10y ago
Copying and pasting wouldn't work, because many times you need to customize things. Also, what a nightmare would be to look it up every time you need to use a component! Of course learning it means to learn components by heart, just like you don't look up built-in functions every time when you use a programming language.
- KayL 10y ago
  Is it just me? I don't recite the built-in functions (intentionally) before I code. I will look into doc when I want to find a shortcut. It's very efficiently. Take Bootstrap as an example, I open the following doc: http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/alerts/ http://v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com/components/alerts/ If I want a Modal, I will check Modal doc (accurately, I jump to CODE PATTERN and copy it, not starting to read doc explanation.) and use it. After few times, you will memorize the basic by heart. (understands the basic, then you can create your snippets or something. Myself, I still open the doc to see the visual examples. Anyway, I coded with a lot of frameworks in different projects at the same time, not just bound to Bootstrap. You need to find your best workflow yourself) EDITED: "customize things" seems not suitable to the questioner at the moment. If he understands basic CSS, he may not ask this question. :)
  - nkkollaw 10y ago
    I don't know if it's just you, but if I had to do that I would take about 10 times a long as I take right now to build something. It's much easier to memorize them in my opinion.

craigvn 10y ago

Learn both, it's not rocket surgery.

ShirsenduK 10y ago

Bootstrap 4 with Flexbox! Because thats the future :) I'm using it on a production site; https://www.maplenest.com https://www.maplenest.com and its fairly stable.

sgt 10y ago
Just a note - the top left MapleNest logo looks pixelated/blurry on a retina screen.

kin 10y ago

I think it would be valuable to you to give HN a little more insight to your particular set of skills and your purpose. I say this because I personally have dived head first into using a CSS framework without first fully understanding a few key CSS fundamentals. This made front-end work very hacky and involved a lot of trial and error. Further along the line I've also been burned once or twice by adopting a CSS framework, only to have breaking changes from future updates. So really it depends on your situation, whatever it may be.

sfilargi 10y ago

The differences are not that big to make a difference in "learning". If your question was should I use 3 or 4, then my answer would be, depends on your project. But for learning, the version doesn't make much of a difference as the general principles are the same.

citrusx 10y ago

Another vote for "Consider alternatives". I happen to like Semantic UI a lot, but you can also consider something smaller and less proscriptive than Bootstrap, like Skeleton or UIkit.

kyriakos 10y ago

If you don't plan to support IE9 then by all means use Bootstrap 4. But keep in mind that Bootstrap (or any CSS framework) are not a perfect solution for not learning CSS. Sooner or later you will need to modify bootstrap or create your own styles.

nkkollaw 10y ago
How do you know he plans to not learn CSS, or he doesn't know it already?

redlofa 10y ago

Everyone opting for "do your own CSS" and not using a framework, is absolutely a horrible idea. You will not be the only one writing CSS for long term for your app I assume, any new member will find it extremely difficult where to modify following some good standards. They might miss a lot of things or overdo things perhaps. Regarding learning BS3 or BS4, I'd opt for BS4. All you have to know what things BS4 provide and use them appropriately. Not to mention, some fairly good CSS knowledge is also a pre-requisite. One of the themes we recently used is startUI (google for it). It's on BS4 and the components were easy to integrate in apps.

nkkollaw 10y ago

I'll actually answer your question. I've been using Bootstrap 4, since it's already stable and will come out in a few months anyway, so I won't have to upgrade anytime soon. If you use libraries that depend on Bootstrap, you might want to check compatibility. I was using Bootswatch and the developer didn't upgrade the code to Bootstrap 4 until a few weeks ago. Other than that, I see no reason not to use the latest version. I'm surprised by all the comments saying that you don't have to learn Bootstrap but you can just look up the components every time you need to use them, suggesting you use Skeleton, or that if you use Bootstrap you don't want to learn/know CSS. Nonsense.

oelmekki 10y ago
There's also an other reason to go with the "almost released" one when starting a new project: bootstrap has been historically painful to migrate. Upgrading major bootstrap version means changing class names in whole codebase (like the classes for grid system), changing html code for some components which have been updated, and having to remove other components altogether and go with your own sauce because components were removed. This has been the case for all previous major bumps, and there is no sign of it being any different this time, so better save a migration and go straight with bs-4.
- nkkollaw 10y ago
  Definitely. The other day I was looking at Bootstrap 3 documentation by mistake instead of Bootstrap 4 and it was completely different, with some components missing altogether.

Brajeshwar 10y ago

On a serious note, I believe the befitting proverbial advice is, "Give a Man a Fish, and You Feed Him for a Day. Teach a Man To Fish, and You Feed Him for a Lifetime." You said "learning", so I'd still suggest learning the actual CSS. Of course, when you become a bit comfortable with it, you'd have already learned Bootstrap. Here is how I'd for; - Use Bootstrap 4 or even 3 to learn your CSS. Use it, go through the source codes and learn from there. - Keep doing CSS (feel free to try other frameworks too) and you should be on your way. The analogy I can find is that quite a lot of people "learned" jQuery. Then, they figured out that it is, well, JavaScript. They got intrigued, went backward and learned JavaScript. Many enterprising developers advance and 'learn' other frameworks too. I used to be in the camp where my take was, "learn the actual raw CSS and JavaScript - that's the way to learn." But my experience dealing with juniors, and new developers is that not everyone can just learn something. In fact, a lot of people do not know how to learn things the right way. They need to first learn to learn new things. So, take it easy on yourself, start with something you can start off (and produce something you're proud of) and begin learning real CSS in the process. Well, my team specialize mostly in fixing projects shoved down by developers using Bootstrap, where the enterprises needed to go to market quickly. Once they reach critical bloat-stage, we go in to clean-up, make the sites 10-30 times faster by removing all of Bootstrap and other frameworks and staying really lean (use a minimal framework or a very low footprint one.) We, sometimes, end up developing the "Bootstraps" for these companies.

nkkollaw 10y ago
How do you know he doesn't know CSS already? Why preaching about learning CSS while he's just asking about Bootstrap 3 vs. Bootstrap 4?
- Brajeshwar 10y ago
  Ah! My bad. My assumption is that if someone is asking if s/he should learn Bootstrap 3 or 4, s/he might still be trying to figure out what to learn to get to the next step in HTML/CSS/JS development. If s/he is already proficient with CSS, s/he might not be asking that question. I might have extrapolated this thing a bit, haven't I!

dumindunuwan 10y ago

you can learn it within 1-2 hours, start with B4. If you want to lean more check the source code if it's css. Also check http://semantic-ui.com/ http://semantic-ui.com/ , it has more widgets and styles. follow UI/UX trends to see how things can be organize in different ways, Pinterest might help you to find/follow more designs.

Dowwie 10y ago

You could have learned either in the time you spent asking this question and reading the responses

vampaz 10y ago

You don't learn Bootstrap. You learn CSS and HTML and you just use Bootstrap.

boraturan 10y ago

I am in Production with 4. No problem.

felixis 10y ago

Ditch both. Learn CSS fundamentals and for a good framework, head for Semantic UI

desiredpersona 10y ago

Learn html and css by using tachyons. tachyons.io

agentgt 10y ago

I can't help but ask a bigger picture question: "What are you trying to do or what is your end goal"? If you are trying to roll out some new software for a startup or project and you want it to look good and semi unique then I recommend just buying a theme with all the necessary components (dashboard, graphs, whatever) you need. Themes are pretty cheap these days. Usually one of these themes has picked some sort of "foundation" library and you can then learn that. Basically force yourself to pick by necessity and not what the "future" should be...

cmoscoso 10y ago

What's Bootstrap?

beat 10y ago

If you don't know either, the "learn Bootstrap" thing will be a much bigger deal than whether you learn 3 or 4. This is doubly true if you don't know CSS in the first place.

FrancoDiaz 10y ago

I do a lot of front-end development these days, but I still feel that my CSS skills are weak. CSS is (for whatever reason) hard for me. Does anybody have any CSS learning resources that have exercises? There's plenty of books out there, but I really need a guided, hands-on learning experience.

wattt 10y ago

The answer you want is to use Bootstrap 3. The reason is that you are new and tutorials will be written for that version. Although generally speaking I would start with 4, you also don't want to burn out on stupid unfinished/incomplete work. Don't burn out when you are just starting!

dyeje 10y ago

I doubt there will be much changed in terms of core functionality and use, so yes just go ahead and learn whatever is available currently.

harrisreynolds 10y ago

I'd learn Bootstrap 3 and then just migrate over to B4 later (if at all). The key is to learn the concepts... and those won't change much even if some details do. I'm following this approach with Easele (https://www.easele.com/ https://www.easele.com/).

pknerd 10y ago

I'd recommend you to learn BS3 as there are more tutorials available. You can always switch to BS4. BS3 is not something that's getting obsolete.

rajangdavis 10y ago

If you have time, force yourself to do a small project with both. Whichever feels more natural to you is probably the route you should take. Personally, I would be hesitant to go with v4 because of losing support for older IE browsers HOWEVER v4 is built on flexbox, so it should in theory be a little bit more of a sane implementation. I would do some more research on what are the differences, it seems like with v4, they are making the API a little bit more simpler, but I haven't dived into it yet.

rootme 10y ago

Bootstrap 5 Will be Best to learn in the future.

steffenmllr 10y ago

If you don't know the differences between versions 3 or 4 yet... My recommendation would be to start with bootstrap 4. You'll learn the downsides by the requirements of your project... maybe this is the hard way but that's the way to learn... Facing problems...