5 ms·

It's also missing the most common error I see: conflating subtitles with closed captions. Closed captions are positioned on the screen to indicate who's talkin

It's also missing the most common error I see: conflating subtitles with closed captions. Closed captions are positioned on the screen to indicate who's talking, have descriptive audio for sound effects, and should be in a high contrast easy to read font (most people with hearing deficiencies also have problems seeing, ie: out of date prescriptions for both hearing aids and eye glasses). As far as I know, QuickTime does it right but the Apple TV, Netflix, and YouTube fuck it up, but that's because I helped write the QuickTime one way back.

deadmutex 10y ago
AFAIK, The YouTube implementation does all of those. Here is a demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbqPe-IceP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbqPe-IceP4 Please do not spread falsehoods. Disclamer: I work at YouTube.
- deoxxa 10y ago
  http://take.ms/fwwhx http://take.ms/fwwhx That is frustratingly poor contrast.
  - deadmutex 10y ago
    This might be because you might have changed your settings for CC in the past. Here is what mine look like http://imgur.com/HLIVXQ6 http://imgur.com/HLIVXQ6 You can click settings again to change font sizes, font family, colors, etc.
    - smnscu 10y ago
      I have to change my CC settings every damn couple of days because they revert to the same white-on-white 400% bullshit. So thanks for that.
      - deadmutex 10y ago
        I am not sure, but the screenshot I submitted seems to be the default settings. However, software that is 100% perfect is pretty much impossible to write, and if you think there's a systematic issue, please file a bug, so it can help others in same situation.
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
        DonHopkins 10y ago
        I am absolutely sure I never changed my settings, and that they have changed over time without me doing anything. Why would anyone want 50% font size at 25% opacity on a yellow then green background? I didn't ask for that. Yes, this is most definitely a systematic issue. The bug reports I've submitted to google have been ignored, and that's a frustrating distraction from what I'm paid to do. Maybe if you submit one yourself, somebody will pay attention, because google is paying you to work on youtube, and hopefully they will take you more seriously than their users.
        saurik 10y ago
        > Maybe if you submit one yourself, somebody will pay attention, because google is paying you to work on youtube, and hopefully they will take you more seriously than their users. FWIW, I always read "file a bug report", when not used to mean "I need more detail" but to mean "talk to the hand" and when spoken by someone working close to a project, as "fuck off", particularly if the person never even bothered to determine whether or not you've used their bug tracker in the past (or even filed a bug already for this specific issue). When I find someone on a forum with a bug that I haven't heard about, I sit around and talk to them until they either get tired of wanting to talk to me or I get the information I need to fix the problem. The alternative would essentially translate to "I don't actually care about this bug", as that's the only way you are going to get certain classes of bug report. I have shown people at Apple bugs that they were absolutely fascinated by momentarily and then told "File a Radar". I clearly wasn't in a position to do at the moment and which of course I forgot to do it when I got home... they should know this happens, because this assuredly happens to almost every single person they tell that to (and no, "well, we do see a large number of bugs filed" is not evidence against "people you tell to file a bug using your arcane system, particularly if they have to do it days later, probably won't"), and yet even when a potentially rare and real and critical bug is shown to them in person (this was even at an event where the whole point was to work with customers on their issues), their response is easentially "engh, I don't care if this doesn't work unless it affects a ton of people". As someone who works in security, I'm going to assert "do you want vulnerabilities? because this attitude is how you get vulnerabilities": every bug is precious as it is a mistake in your mental model of the software, and who knows how far down the rabbit hole that mistake will take you. Sure: I realize that the engineer isn't always the best person to do this, and even in my tiny company I had to solve that, but the solution isn't to tell people to "go use the bug tracker", a comment which shunts annoying work learning a new system, one which is all too likely to demoralize them (Apple's Radar is a great example of this), but instead to have someone whose job is to talk to people to follow up with credible bugs: I'd go "hey Xyz, there's a guy on this forum who's complaining about something I hadn't heard of before; can you try to get more details from them?" (where Xyz has changed over the years, but has always been one of the few key positions). I couldn't begin to count the number of times I have debugged an issue with someone on reddit.
  - fgandiya 10y ago
    I hate it when it does that, but you can change it with the gear thingy.
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  The falsehood you're spreading is that youtube closed captioning is consistently usable for everyone by default. This is how my subtitles / closed captions have looked for me on youtube for a year or so now [1] (on up-to-date Mac Chrome). The font is extremely small and blurry and practically transparent, and there is a horrible background color, which is usually yellow until a week or so ago, but has now changed to green for Christmas. All I want for Christmas is readable YouTube text. I'm so glad YouTube is trying to keep up with the season's festivities by changing the background color of their absolutely unreadable text from yellow to green, but shouldn't they try to make the text readable by default somehow instead? Maybe a point size larger than 10 points, and a transparency higher than 10 percent, and a neutral or at least less nauseating background color? Do all users have different randomly selected fonts and point sizes and colors? Why does it change randomly without any user intervention? Is this some sort of a/b/.../z testing? Get it together, YouTube! I most certainly didn't do anything to configure the closed captions like this. Are there keyboard commands so power users can quickly switch fonts to strange colors and point sizes, that my cats may have pressed when walking on my keyboard? [1] http://imgur.com/gallery/GOh1t http://imgur.com/gallery/GOh1t
  - DonHopkins 10y ago
    Oh my god, apparently it WAS my cat's [1] fault for walking across the keyboard! Some genius at YouTube decided to implement persistent keyboard shortcuts that enable cats to easily and stealthily change the closed captioned text into unreadable colors! My cat can press "o" to make the text lighter and fuzzier, and press "b" to cycle through a garish series of primary background colors plus black and white, including the same color as the text, rendering it invisible. There may be others, but I can't tell and I'm afraid to try. Hoping that my opposable thumbs would enable me to get some help, I pressed "?" expecting to get a list of keyboard shortcuts, but that didn't do anything but violate the Principle of Least Astonishment [2]. It's not all my cat's fault, though -- some of the blame lies with YouTube: purposefully designing, implementing and not documenting such annoyingly cat-friendly but unhelpfully user-hostile keyboard shortcuts. Googling for "youtube keyboard shortcuts" doesn't show any links to official YouTube documentation on the first page of results -- the top featured hit is an outdated page from an "SEO Consultant" full of social networking widgets and ads and self promotion, that doesn't even mention the closed captioning related keyboard shortcuts, which my cat discovered all by himself. Does YouTube itself even document its own keyboard shortcuts online anywhere, let alone providing pop-up "?" help? And does anybody really think that changing the transparency and background color of closed captioned text is so important that it deserved several dedicated undocumented keyboard shortcuts, no matter what the usability consequences were? Or that the user's inadvertent color and transparency preferences should be persisted across all videos instead of applied per-video? Who would even want partially transparent text anyway, let alone a key to change between several transparencies? [1] http://imgur.com/a/33Mrt http://imgur.com/a/33Mrt [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishmen...
- coldtea 10y ago
  >Please do not spread falsehoods. Please assume the other side possibly doesn't know something you know (if that's really the case here), instead of being rude and accusing them of spreading falsehoods.
tantalor 10y ago
Okay, so how are subtitles different?
- Shendare 10y ago
  Subtitles are simply translations of speech or text into another language, and are generally (though not always) center aligned near the bottom of the frame.
  - grkjusdgf 10y ago
    This is wrong. Subtitles and closed captions serve the same purpose and the terms are largely interchangeable. It's an Americanism to associate subtitles specifically with translations or closed captions specifically with EIA-608. The essential function of subtitles and closed captions is to enable a viewer to read dialogue (or contextual audio elements) without needing to either hear or understand the audio. It may be in the same language or not. As one example, in some Chinese markets TV and movies are all subtitled in Chinese, not (primarily) for the deaf, but because the standard Chinese subtitles are intelligible to readers whose only spoken language is a mutually unintelligible dialect.
    - mentat 10y ago
      Sorry, but this is wrong. Closed captions may include non-speech audio as text for hearing impaired which subtitles will assume just speech translation not things like "[wind noise]".

deadmutex 10y ago

AFAIK, The YouTube implementation does all of those. Here is a demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbqPe-IceP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbqPe-IceP4 Please do not spread falsehoods. Disclamer: I work at YouTube.

deoxxa 10y ago
http://take.ms/fwwhx http://take.ms/fwwhx That is frustratingly poor contrast.
- deadmutex 10y ago
  This might be because you might have changed your settings for CC in the past. Here is what mine look like http://imgur.com/HLIVXQ6 http://imgur.com/HLIVXQ6 You can click settings again to change font sizes, font family, colors, etc.
  - smnscu 10y ago
    I have to change my CC settings every damn couple of days because they revert to the same white-on-white 400% bullshit. So thanks for that.
    - deadmutex 10y ago
      I am not sure, but the screenshot I submitted seems to be the default settings. However, software that is 100% perfect is pretty much impossible to write, and if you think there's a systematic issue, please file a bug, so it can help others in same situation.
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - DonHopkins 10y ago
        I am absolutely sure I never changed my settings, and that they have changed over time without me doing anything. Why would anyone want 50% font size at 25% opacity on a yellow then green background? I didn't ask for that. Yes, this is most definitely a systematic issue. The bug reports I've submitted to google have been ignored, and that's a frustrating distraction from what I'm paid to do. Maybe if you submit one yourself, somebody will pay attention, because google is paying you to work on youtube, and hopefully they will take you more seriously than their users.
        saurik 10y ago
        > Maybe if you submit one yourself, somebody will pay attention, because google is paying you to work on youtube, and hopefully they will take you more seriously than their users. FWIW, I always read "file a bug report", when not used to mean "I need more detail" but to mean "talk to the hand" and when spoken by someone working close to a project, as "fuck off", particularly if the person never even bothered to determine whether or not you've used their bug tracker in the past (or even filed a bug already for this specific issue). When I find someone on a forum with a bug that I haven't heard about, I sit around and talk to them until they either get tired of wanting to talk to me or I get the information I need to fix the problem. The alternative would essentially translate to "I don't actually care about this bug", as that's the only way you are going to get certain classes of bug report. I have shown people at Apple bugs that they were absolutely fascinated by momentarily and then told "File a Radar". I clearly wasn't in a position to do at the moment and which of course I forgot to do it when I got home... they should know this happens, because this assuredly happens to almost every single person they tell that to (and no, "well, we do see a large number of bugs filed" is not evidence against "people you tell to file a bug using your arcane system, particularly if they have to do it days later, probably won't"), and yet even when a potentially rare and real and critical bug is shown to them in person (this was even at an event where the whole point was to work with customers on their issues), their response is easentially "engh, I don't care if this doesn't work unless it affects a ton of people". As someone who works in security, I'm going to assert "do you want vulnerabilities? because this attitude is how you get vulnerabilities": every bug is precious as it is a mistake in your mental model of the software, and who knows how far down the rabbit hole that mistake will take you. Sure: I realize that the engineer isn't always the best person to do this, and even in my tiny company I had to solve that, but the solution isn't to tell people to "go use the bug tracker", a comment which shunts annoying work learning a new system, one which is all too likely to demoralize them (Apple's Radar is a great example of this), but instead to have someone whose job is to talk to people to follow up with credible bugs: I'd go "hey Xyz, there's a guy on this forum who's complaining about something I hadn't heard of before; can you try to get more details from them?" (where Xyz has changed over the years, but has always been one of the few key positions). I couldn't begin to count the number of times I have debugged an issue with someone on reddit.
- fgandiya 10y ago
  I hate it when it does that, but you can change it with the gear thingy.
DonHopkins 10y ago
The falsehood you're spreading is that youtube closed captioning is consistently usable for everyone by default. This is how my subtitles / closed captions have looked for me on youtube for a year or so now [1] (on up-to-date Mac Chrome). The font is extremely small and blurry and practically transparent, and there is a horrible background color, which is usually yellow until a week or so ago, but has now changed to green for Christmas. All I want for Christmas is readable YouTube text. I'm so glad YouTube is trying to keep up with the season's festivities by changing the background color of their absolutely unreadable text from yellow to green, but shouldn't they try to make the text readable by default somehow instead? Maybe a point size larger than 10 points, and a transparency higher than 10 percent, and a neutral or at least less nauseating background color? Do all users have different randomly selected fonts and point sizes and colors? Why does it change randomly without any user intervention? Is this some sort of a/b/.../z testing? Get it together, YouTube! I most certainly didn't do anything to configure the closed captions like this. Are there keyboard commands so power users can quickly switch fonts to strange colors and point sizes, that my cats may have pressed when walking on my keyboard? [1] http://imgur.com/gallery/GOh1t http://imgur.com/gallery/GOh1t
- DonHopkins 10y ago
  Oh my god, apparently it WAS my cat's [1] fault for walking across the keyboard! Some genius at YouTube decided to implement persistent keyboard shortcuts that enable cats to easily and stealthily change the closed captioned text into unreadable colors! My cat can press "o" to make the text lighter and fuzzier, and press "b" to cycle through a garish series of primary background colors plus black and white, including the same color as the text, rendering it invisible. There may be others, but I can't tell and I'm afraid to try. Hoping that my opposable thumbs would enable me to get some help, I pressed "?" expecting to get a list of keyboard shortcuts, but that didn't do anything but violate the Principle of Least Astonishment [2]. It's not all my cat's fault, though -- some of the blame lies with YouTube: purposefully designing, implementing and not documenting such annoyingly cat-friendly but unhelpfully user-hostile keyboard shortcuts. Googling for "youtube keyboard shortcuts" doesn't show any links to official YouTube documentation on the first page of results -- the top featured hit is an outdated page from an "SEO Consultant" full of social networking widgets and ads and self promotion, that doesn't even mention the closed captioning related keyboard shortcuts, which my cat discovered all by himself. Does YouTube itself even document its own keyboard shortcuts online anywhere, let alone providing pop-up "?" help? And does anybody really think that changing the transparency and background color of closed captioned text is so important that it deserved several dedicated undocumented keyboard shortcuts, no matter what the usability consequences were? Or that the user's inadvertent color and transparency preferences should be persisted across all videos instead of applied per-video? Who would even want partially transparent text anyway, let alone a key to change between several transparencies? [1] http://imgur.com/a/33Mrt http://imgur.com/a/33Mrt [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishmen...
coldtea 10y ago
>Please do not spread falsehoods. Please assume the other side possibly doesn't know something you know (if that's really the case here), instead of being rude and accusing them of spreading falsehoods.

tantalor 10y ago

Okay, so how are subtitles different?

Shendare 10y ago
Subtitles are simply translations of speech or text into another language, and are generally (though not always) center aligned near the bottom of the frame.
- grkjusdgf 10y ago
  This is wrong. Subtitles and closed captions serve the same purpose and the terms are largely interchangeable. It's an Americanism to associate subtitles specifically with translations or closed captions specifically with EIA-608. The essential function of subtitles and closed captions is to enable a viewer to read dialogue (or contextual audio elements) without needing to either hear or understand the audio. It may be in the same language or not. As one example, in some Chinese markets TV and movies are all subtitled in Chinese, not (primarily) for the deaf, but because the standard Chinese subtitles are intelligible to readers whose only spoken language is a mutually unintelligible dialect.
  - mentat 10y ago
    Sorry, but this is wrong. Closed captions may include non-speech audio as text for hearing impaired which subtitles will assume just speech translation not things like "[wind noise]".