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You need to do more research. Apple says it does have responsibility for workers in its supply chain, and some of your statements are not factually correct. He

by scholia 10y ago

You need to do more research. Apple says it does have responsibility for workers in its supply chain, and some of your statements are not factually correct. Here's an example of how Apple actually works. (1) Enough Foxconn workers commit suicide to put pressure on Apple. (2) Foxconn increases pay and improves working conditions. (3) Apple moves some iPhone production from Foxconn to Pegatron, which is cheaper, because Pegatron workers earn less and are treated worse. Apple moved some production from a company that made real efforts to stop child labor (school-children bussed in for "work experience" on production lines) to one where it still goes on. Given that Apple has a $200 billion cash mountain and the workers get peanuts, this is a shitty way to behave. If you want to take the line that Apple can be as unethical as it likes in exploiting Chinese workers and tax loopholes -- because profits -- then I guess you have bigger problems.

dkonofalski 10y ago
Except that's not at all what I said and none of your statements are factually correct. You have no evidence for any of what you just said and ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories. They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. And I never said they can be as unethical as they like either, so I won't be replying further as you can't make your point without being deceptive and straw-manning.
- scholia 10y ago
  Haha. As I said, you need to do more research. You could start with China Labor Watch. You'd also do better if you approached this with an open mind. > They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. Love to see your evidence for that, if there is any. > ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories Depends how you measure it. Apple makes the most money and, because it needs to maintain a false image, it has the most to lose. However, it's been aware of child labor since 2008, if not earlier. It must also be aware that companies engineer around its guidelines, so they are more of a PR stunt than anything else. A hugely rich company like Apple could certainly make a difference if it were serious. Pity it isn't.
  - dkonofalski 10y ago
    I do approach this with an open mind and I have looked at China Labor Watch extensively. Unfortunately, they're not unbiased either and their "research" has, in the past, included production lines that were not producing Apple products but products of other manufacturers. In addition, even CLW has had to admit that conditions improved drastically for Apple's manufacturing lines due to their random audits. Apple also was the only company to initiate an investigation into Foxconn via the FLA to prevent exactly what you're describing. Again, it's not a magic wand that they can wave and magically remove all child labor. The only thing they can do is contract their suppliers under fair working conditions and audit them to make sure that the contract is keeping their word. Apple doesn't own those factories, they don't hire the employees, and they don't run the lines. They simple order product from these companies under certain conditions (including workers protections) and are promised that those conditions will be met. I don't know what else you expect them to do and I'm curious if you're this vehement about all the other manufacturers that use the same factories and don't make contractual guidelines, don't audit the factories, and don't actively investigate them.
    - scholia 10y ago
      So much for you "not replying further" ;-) Apple wasn't the first to audit production lines, but it does have some special problems. For a start, its "big bang" event-based marketing model puts exceptional stress on pre-launch production, and on Foxconn when it needs to find 200,000 or so extra staff. There are other aspects, too. (1) Apple markets itself as a "good" company, which invites criticism when it behaves like any other brutal capitalism corporation, or worse; (2) Apple's $200 billion cash pile means it has no excuse for the frequently appalling treatment of Chinese workers; (3) Tim Cook has said that Apple is responsible for everyone in its supply chain. So the lame excuse that "everyone does it" doesn't apply. The bottom line is that Apple knows perfectly well that its guidelines are not being followed, and that it can afford to treat its workers better. But if it's not being hammered in the press for it, it really doesn't care.

by scholia 10y ago

dkonofalski 10y ago

Except that's not at all what I said and none of your statements are factually correct. You have no evidence for any of what you just said and ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories. They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. And I never said they can be as unethical as they like either, so I won't be replying further as you can't make your point without being deceptive and straw-manning.

scholia 10y ago
Haha. As I said, you need to do more research. You could start with China Labor Watch. You'd also do better if you approached this with an open mind. > They moved production from Foxconn exactly because of these faults. Love to see your evidence for that, if there is any. > ignored evidence that Apple has done more than either company to raise the standards at these factories Depends how you measure it. Apple makes the most money and, because it needs to maintain a false image, it has the most to lose. However, it's been aware of child labor since 2008, if not earlier. It must also be aware that companies engineer around its guidelines, so they are more of a PR stunt than anything else. A hugely rich company like Apple could certainly make a difference if it were serious. Pity it isn't.
- dkonofalski 10y ago
  I do approach this with an open mind and I have looked at China Labor Watch extensively. Unfortunately, they're not unbiased either and their "research" has, in the past, included production lines that were not producing Apple products but products of other manufacturers. In addition, even CLW has had to admit that conditions improved drastically for Apple's manufacturing lines due to their random audits. Apple also was the only company to initiate an investigation into Foxconn via the FLA to prevent exactly what you're describing. Again, it's not a magic wand that they can wave and magically remove all child labor. The only thing they can do is contract their suppliers under fair working conditions and audit them to make sure that the contract is keeping their word. Apple doesn't own those factories, they don't hire the employees, and they don't run the lines. They simple order product from these companies under certain conditions (including workers protections) and are promised that those conditions will be met. I don't know what else you expect them to do and I'm curious if you're this vehement about all the other manufacturers that use the same factories and don't make contractual guidelines, don't audit the factories, and don't actively investigate them.
  - scholia 10y ago
    So much for you "not replying further" ;-) Apple wasn't the first to audit production lines, but it does have some special problems. For a start, its "big bang" event-based marketing model puts exceptional stress on pre-launch production, and on Foxconn when it needs to find 200,000 or so extra staff. There are other aspects, too. (1) Apple markets itself as a "good" company, which invites criticism when it behaves like any other brutal capitalism corporation, or worse; (2) Apple's $200 billion cash pile means it has no excuse for the frequently appalling treatment of Chinese workers; (3) Tim Cook has said that Apple is responsible for everyone in its supply chain. So the lame excuse that "everyone does it" doesn't apply. The bottom line is that Apple knows perfectly well that its guidelines are not being followed, and that it can afford to treat its workers better. But if it's not being hammered in the press for it, it really doesn't care.