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There are worse criticisms of the Jedi than them being uncommitted to social justice---that dusty order of ascetics is an anti-democratic paramilitary that forc

There are worse criticisms of the Jedi than them being uncommitted to social justice---that dusty order of ascetics is an anti-democratic paramilitary that forcibly conscripts and trains child soldiers to engage in extrajudicial killings in the name of the Pax Galactica, a meritocracy rooted in the notion of genetic supermen. They are as vile as the Empire that succeeded them.

the8472 10y ago
Most superhero teams seem to operate on similar principles. And I would argue that this is somewhat justified because societies of muggles have not developed any mechanisms (organizationally and morally) to deal with individuals that fall several orders of magnitude outside the normal skillset of their species. Put differently: Considering that there would almost nothing mere mortals could do to stop superman from declaring himself emperor of mankind (several supervillains try to do just that after all) they are already showing remarkable self-restraint and ethical behavior simply by not ruling the planet through force.
- the_af 10y ago
  > Most superhero teams seem to operate on similar principles. Agreed. This is why deconstructions of the superhero genre, such as Watchmen (or even lesser ones, such as Superman: Red Son), are so appealing.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  I know it's still shocking to some, but the main reason people don't collect purses from elderly and disabled people they meet at night isn't because they might get caught, and it's also not because they're naive and passing up easy money. It's because they're holding on to something more valuable which they already have and are, which they would damage or even loose in the process. If anything, the main or even sole reason to want power over others is impotence and insecurity, and if you're immortal and can do whatever you want, there is really no use for that, only downsides. Unless one subscribes to the Dwight Schrute theory of super heroes of course, which says all super heroes are born out of childhood trauma.
burkaman 10y ago
Isn't a meritocracy rooted in the notion of genetic supermen at least a little more reasonable when there are literal genetic supermen?
- throwaway729 10y ago
  The standard critiques of anti-democratic regimes almost never appeal to the existence of individual decision makers -- or even groups of decision makers -- whose governing ability is superior to that of the current dictator. (In fact, many critiques of anti-democratic regimes don't even accept that this is something over which there is even a debate to be had. As one author put it, men have a "self-evident" right to govern themselves within a framework respectful of human rights.)
- xenophonf 10y ago
  Genetic superiority as a trope distinctly lacks the kinds of compassionate loving-kindness, strong moral/ethical codes, and good leadership skills one would want out of the supermen put in place to rule mere mortals such as ourselves, hence Iain Banks' reply, when questioned whether Culture AIs would be what gods are actually like, was "If we're lucky."
  - sandworm101 10y ago
    The trope is based on it allowing for reluctant superhero character. Since powers are given by birth, we can watch kids struggle to come to grips with their powers. If powers are earned, then superheros would all be driven 'winners' ... mostly the psycopaths able to defeat all competitors. That is where we get evil characters. As a general rule, good guys have powers forced upon them. Bad guys have to work for them. This enforces the concept of an elite class of 'good' families and a dangerous group of upstart peasants. The theme has been with us since ancient times. Far too long imho.
  - burkaman 10y ago
    Ok, but that's a critique of the writers, not an in-universe critique of the Jedi. I guess I misunderstood the angle you were coming at this from.
olewhalehunter 10y ago
>meritocracy rooted in the notion of genetic supermen Always funny to see phrases like that here, however if someone was force sensitive and had a zero midichlorian count they'd want them anyway, the order was never bred for their abilities, and with their vows of celibacy actively removed themselves from the gene pool. In regards to their use as a paramilitary, if a child was found to be able to read minds the CIA would be looking to kidnap them.
jankotek 10y ago
My point is not about social justice, but leaving behind your mother in bad conditions.
Spooky23 10y ago
That's the real awesomeness about Rogue One... imo, it was a middle finger for Lucas and is the way Disney will unwind those godawful prequels. The appearance of the force as a religion that people have faith in and are passionate about is a good way to do away with the dopey prequel stuff.
IndianAstronaut 10y ago
Not to mention that in Rogue One, it was essentially a suicide mission against an existing government.
- _audakel 10y ago
  It's seemed to pull alot from the US invasion of the middle East, except that the rebel terrorists are the good guys. Alot if desert scenes, roadside bombs, even some of the style of head dress was reminiscent of the black head scarfs Al-Qaeda uses
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

the8472 10y ago

Most superhero teams seem to operate on similar principles. And I would argue that this is somewhat justified because societies of muggles have not developed any mechanisms (organizationally and morally) to deal with individuals that fall several orders of magnitude outside the normal skillset of their species. Put differently: Considering that there would almost nothing mere mortals could do to stop superman from declaring himself emperor of mankind (several supervillains try to do just that after all) they are already showing remarkable self-restraint and ethical behavior simply by not ruling the planet through force.

the_af 10y ago
> Most superhero teams seem to operate on similar principles. Agreed. This is why deconstructions of the superhero genre, such as Watchmen (or even lesser ones, such as Superman: Red Son), are so appealing.
PavlovsCat 10y ago
I know it's still shocking to some, but the main reason people don't collect purses from elderly and disabled people they meet at night isn't because they might get caught, and it's also not because they're naive and passing up easy money. It's because they're holding on to something more valuable which they already have and are, which they would damage or even loose in the process. If anything, the main or even sole reason to want power over others is impotence and insecurity, and if you're immortal and can do whatever you want, there is really no use for that, only downsides. Unless one subscribes to the Dwight Schrute theory of super heroes of course, which says all super heroes are born out of childhood trauma.

burkaman 10y ago

Isn't a meritocracy rooted in the notion of genetic supermen at least a little more reasonable when there are literal genetic supermen?

throwaway729 10y ago
The standard critiques of anti-democratic regimes almost never appeal to the existence of individual decision makers -- or even groups of decision makers -- whose governing ability is superior to that of the current dictator. (In fact, many critiques of anti-democratic regimes don't even accept that this is something over which there is even a debate to be had. As one author put it, men have a "self-evident" right to govern themselves within a framework respectful of human rights.)
xenophonf 10y ago
Genetic superiority as a trope distinctly lacks the kinds of compassionate loving-kindness, strong moral/ethical codes, and good leadership skills one would want out of the supermen put in place to rule mere mortals such as ourselves, hence Iain Banks' reply, when questioned whether Culture AIs would be what gods are actually like, was "If we're lucky."
- sandworm101 10y ago
  The trope is based on it allowing for reluctant superhero character. Since powers are given by birth, we can watch kids struggle to come to grips with their powers. If powers are earned, then superheros would all be driven 'winners' ... mostly the psycopaths able to defeat all competitors. That is where we get evil characters. As a general rule, good guys have powers forced upon them. Bad guys have to work for them. This enforces the concept of an elite class of 'good' families and a dangerous group of upstart peasants. The theme has been with us since ancient times. Far too long imho.
- burkaman 10y ago
  Ok, but that's a critique of the writers, not an in-universe critique of the Jedi. I guess I misunderstood the angle you were coming at this from.

olewhalehunter 10y ago

>meritocracy rooted in the notion of genetic supermen Always funny to see phrases like that here, however if someone was force sensitive and had a zero midichlorian count they'd want them anyway, the order was never bred for their abilities, and with their vows of celibacy actively removed themselves from the gene pool. In regards to their use as a paramilitary, if a child was found to be able to read minds the CIA would be looking to kidnap them.

jankotek 10y ago

My point is not about social justice, but leaving behind your mother in bad conditions.

Spooky23 10y ago

That's the real awesomeness about Rogue One... imo, it was a middle finger for Lucas and is the way Disney will unwind those godawful prequels. The appearance of the force as a religion that people have faith in and are passionate about is a good way to do away with the dopey prequel stuff.

IndianAstronaut 10y ago

Not to mention that in Rogue One, it was essentially a suicide mission against an existing government.

_audakel 10y ago
It's seemed to pull alot from the US invasion of the middle East, except that the rebel terrorists are the good guys. Alot if desert scenes, roadside bombs, even some of the style of head dress was reminiscent of the black head scarfs Al-Qaeda uses

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]