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> "Scientism" is a meaningless word What do you mean by this? People prematurely assuming that science has a good explanation for something it doesn't has a lo

> "Scientism" is a meaningless word What do you mean by this? People prematurely assuming that science has a good explanation for something it doesn't has a long and storied history. Scientists saying women couldn't vote because blood flowing to their ovaries fled the brain causing poor decisions, saying that black people had lower IQs because they had smaller craniums, that the Irish were a totally different inferior race than whites, etc. And people latching onto their authority as justification. Most recently, many outlets have discussed the Clinton campaign's over-reliance on "data" and "science-like" methods, via their ADA "algorithm" and a refusal to go for grassroots tactics and instead trusting analysis of millenials or w/e. "Scientism" is alive and well. People who think more numbers == more truth, even without putting those numbers and their underlying generating assumptions to any scrutiny, are very very plentiful.

jhbadger 10y ago
But science is literally the only way we have of explaining anything. Yes, many 19th century opinions are now known as incorrect. But how do we know that? Because later science showed that ovaries don't work that way and so on. And while Clinton's campaign was unsuccessful, arguing the merits of various strategies that could have been taken is clearly a form of social science, not an alternative to science. If "scientism" is a real thing there have to be answerable questions that not addressable by science.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  > If "scientism" is a real thing there have to be answerable questions that not addressable by science. No. The existence of scientism doesn't imply that some questions don't have scientific answers, any more than fanboyism implies nobody has any true talent. Scientism merely means that some people are extremely persuaded by "sciency" things, even if they lack the rigor and reproducibility of actual science. So, if I'm wearing a business suit and present an economic theory based on the history of people's behavior, you're skeptical. However, if I wear a professor's cardigan and present the exact same theory with some equations and graphs instead (generated using the historical assumptions), you suddenly think it's very believable and impervious to challenge. That's what scientism is. It's confusing the appearance of science, the language of science, for the essence of science (reproducibility, verifiability, empirical predicates, etc). Edit: Additionally, people who are hardcore fans of science as drivers of change usually ignore the reality that science came around to a political opinion, rather than the other way around. People protested the idea that they were inferior, got the political environment changed, and in this new environment, "new facts" came to light that came to challenge old conclusions. If bad science based on bad observations leads to bad policy that then creates more bad observations, you can easily end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  - jhbadger 10y ago
    I think the suit story is cribbed from "The Little Prince", and you seem to arguing about something other than the universality or non-universality of the scientific method.
    - RodericDay 10y ago
      It seems like you misunderstand what scientism is, and lash out by calling people explaining it to you wrong. I have never read the little prince. It's a pretty straightforward made up example.
- jnicholasp 10y ago
  You seem to be using a very broad definition of 'science'. What do you mean by the term? Do we know mathematical truths via science, or is that a different realm of knowledge? Are philosophical arguments categorizable as science? What about questions that are in theory testable, but the test involves huge numbers of complex interfering factors and decades of time (like many questions of political and social policy) - are they usefully labeled as scientific questions, or do we gain something by recognizing them as requiring some other mode of knowledge than just empirical observations? > answerable questions not addressable by science So what does 'answerable' mean? There's no such thing as proof, rigorously speaking, outside of math and other formal systems, and not always within them. The answers that the best hard science provides are strong, but not provably certain, and the spectrum of certainty extends a long way down from there - at what level of certainty does an answer stop being an answer? I think there are many important questions that don't admit hard scientific answers, and for which 'science' as I understand the term isn't the most useful mode of knowledge for finding the 'answers' that are most likely to be fruitful.
  - jhbadger 10y ago
    Science is a process in which conclusions are made from evidence. It does not deal in proof and scientific conclusions change when new evidence is available. Obviously a historian uses this process as much as physicist. Mathematics in itself is not science, but it can be used as a tool for science if the assumptions in the mathematical models are based on evidence. An answerable question is one in which evidence can actually be used to test whether one answer is better than another.
    - RodericDay 10y ago
      Historians do not do science. Your definition of science seems is so broad it's meaningless.
      - jhbadger 10y ago
        Do paleontologists do science in your opinion? Or archeologists? They also are using evidence to answer questions of the past. What makes historians different? What is meaningful about the broad definition of science is it separates the people using evidence from those just using "gut feeling" (or mystic intuition or whatever they want to call it).

jhbadger 10y ago

But science is literally the only way we have of explaining anything. Yes, many 19th century opinions are now known as incorrect. But how do we know that? Because later science showed that ovaries don't work that way and so on. And while Clinton's campaign was unsuccessful, arguing the merits of various strategies that could have been taken is clearly a form of social science, not an alternative to science. If "scientism" is a real thing there have to be answerable questions that not addressable by science.

RodericDay 10y ago
> If "scientism" is a real thing there have to be answerable questions that not addressable by science. No. The existence of scientism doesn't imply that some questions don't have scientific answers, any more than fanboyism implies nobody has any true talent. Scientism merely means that some people are extremely persuaded by "sciency" things, even if they lack the rigor and reproducibility of actual science. So, if I'm wearing a business suit and present an economic theory based on the history of people's behavior, you're skeptical. However, if I wear a professor's cardigan and present the exact same theory with some equations and graphs instead (generated using the historical assumptions), you suddenly think it's very believable and impervious to challenge. That's what scientism is. It's confusing the appearance of science, the language of science, for the essence of science (reproducibility, verifiability, empirical predicates, etc). Edit: Additionally, people who are hardcore fans of science as drivers of change usually ignore the reality that science came around to a political opinion, rather than the other way around. People protested the idea that they were inferior, got the political environment changed, and in this new environment, "new facts" came to light that came to challenge old conclusions. If bad science based on bad observations leads to bad policy that then creates more bad observations, you can easily end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- jhbadger 10y ago
  I think the suit story is cribbed from "The Little Prince", and you seem to arguing about something other than the universality or non-universality of the scientific method.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    It seems like you misunderstand what scientism is, and lash out by calling people explaining it to you wrong. I have never read the little prince. It's a pretty straightforward made up example.
jnicholasp 10y ago
You seem to be using a very broad definition of 'science'. What do you mean by the term? Do we know mathematical truths via science, or is that a different realm of knowledge? Are philosophical arguments categorizable as science? What about questions that are in theory testable, but the test involves huge numbers of complex interfering factors and decades of time (like many questions of political and social policy) - are they usefully labeled as scientific questions, or do we gain something by recognizing them as requiring some other mode of knowledge than just empirical observations? > answerable questions not addressable by science So what does 'answerable' mean? There's no such thing as proof, rigorously speaking, outside of math and other formal systems, and not always within them. The answers that the best hard science provides are strong, but not provably certain, and the spectrum of certainty extends a long way down from there - at what level of certainty does an answer stop being an answer? I think there are many important questions that don't admit hard scientific answers, and for which 'science' as I understand the term isn't the most useful mode of knowledge for finding the 'answers' that are most likely to be fruitful.
- jhbadger 10y ago
  Science is a process in which conclusions are made from evidence. It does not deal in proof and scientific conclusions change when new evidence is available. Obviously a historian uses this process as much as physicist. Mathematics in itself is not science, but it can be used as a tool for science if the assumptions in the mathematical models are based on evidence. An answerable question is one in which evidence can actually be used to test whether one answer is better than another.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    Historians do not do science. Your definition of science seems is so broad it's meaningless.
    - jhbadger 10y ago
      Do paleontologists do science in your opinion? Or archeologists? They also are using evidence to answer questions of the past. What makes historians different? What is meaningful about the broad definition of science is it separates the people using evidence from those just using "gut feeling" (or mystic intuition or whatever they want to call it).