4 ms·

To abuse a phrase: it is difficult to make a dev finish a project when his livelihood depends on him not finishing it.

by 1_2__3 10y ago

indy 10y ago
I think the devs deserve slightly more respect. Nobody wants to spend years of their lives on an unfinished product.
- scrollaway 10y ago
  CIG deserves a lot more respect than that. I'm appalled at the quality of the comments here. They are one of the best studios in the industry right now when it comes to consumer and dev friendliness. Their blog is a treasure trove of interesting posts on the internal development of the game, far more often and rigorously updated than anything else. Seriously, keep the unsourced/unresearched flames to Reddit. You'd think that HN of all communities would be more appreciative of what CIG brings to the table.
  - 1_2__3 10y ago
    You're praising them for being developers, rather than actually making anything finished. I'm glad you respect their effort so highly but that doesn't mean anyone else is "flaming" them for pointing out the constantly pushed-out schedules and the convenient fact that they're making plenty of cash without ever releasing anything... and the betas they have released shows an ever-more-ambitious vision when even 3-5 vision-elevations back it was doubtful they could do what they're trying.
    - scrollaway 10y ago
      > You're praising them for being developers, rather than actually making anything finished This is a developer forum more than a gaming forum, so I think it's appropriate, don't you? > plenty of cash without ever releasing anything Come on now. I haven't at all kept up with the game for the past year and half and I can still tell you that they are regularly pushing out content simply because my inbox gets spammed with their content update newsletters. In fact, the latest email is from 17 hours ago, announcing Lumberyard alongside "Alpha 2.6 with Star Marine", their big FPS patch. Saying they "aren't releasing anything" is disingenuous. If you're saying they're not releasing anything you want to play, then sure - they haven't released anything I want to play either. It doesn't change anything.
      - sleepybrett 10y ago
        Sample Email: "Here's another pretend ship you can buy for a game that isn't remotely done!"
        scrollaway 10y ago
        The post I was replying to claims that the game is releasing zero content. I replied with the most readily available example that it in fact is releasing content. That you are unhappy that they're making money before the game is done is another problem. I don't get why you would be; there's far less chances of the game ever being done if they're not making money than if they are. I dunno what to tell you. Don't buy the ships? I stopped buying the ships a long time ago, nobody needed to tell me to do that.
        mynameisvlad 10y ago
        Nobody said zero content. The parent comment even mentions the Beta (technically, Alpha,) so it's clear they meant that no finished product is being released.
        Grangar 10y ago
        Yet at this stage other studios with publishers probably have only shown a teaser. The fault isn't with CIG, the fault is with open develoment in general. It's just not going to work.
      - mynameisvlad 10y ago
        Star Citizen started development in 2011. They started crowdfunding four years ago. Hell, studios and companies come and go in that timeframe and they still haven't released the full, finished game that they promised their backers would get released two years ago. [1] People's criticism isn't that they're releasing Alphas. Sure, they have been pretty consistently. It's instead that that's all they've been releasing. There hasn't really been any indication of a coming final release, and timelines keep on being shifted out. [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/descri...
  - KON_Air 10y ago
    >You'd think that HN of all communities would be more appreciative of what CIG brings to the table. Like what exactly? How to deliver nothing but keep being funded with internets-fedaykins fighting tooth and nail to keep your image unsullied?
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
  - ebbv 10y ago
    > They are one of the best studios in the industry right now when it comes to consumer and dev friendliness. I think it's hard to judge that when the game hasn't been released. Prior to release you could say that about Peter Molyneux or anybody else who promises the sun, moon and stars. I don't think taking people's money and not delivering anything for 4+ years isn't particularly friendly myself.
    - scrollaway 10y ago
      But... they're not, though. You can at best say that of the original kickstarter backers (a now-tiny minority who backed a very different vision of the game - I'm part of that group, by the way), but not of somebody who's buying a ship today. There is a plethora of information available about the vision of the game and that is very much because of CIG's approach to openness. They make everything available. They release countless youtube videos, blog posts, etc about design work on the game. The people putting money into this, they're not preordering a game they're expecting to come out 3 months later, and then ending up disappointed because it's still in development. And I've seen CIG offer complete refunds (sometimes worth thousands of dollars) to backers unhappy with the vision shift. On these points alone they're doing a hell of a lot better than most game studios out there. And yes, they're "promising sun moon and stars", but unlike Molyneux's games, NMS or whatever other overhyped project you can think of, they're constantly delivering updates about it, delivering content. People will always be disappointed. I've been in the games industry long enough to know that gamers never know what the hell they want, and when they see something they think they want, they're usually wrong about it. Opening the gates of game development for consumers to peek inside, try out the product during its earliest days, is a ballsy move and one that simply isn't getting the credit it deserves, especially here.
flamedoge 10y ago
Closure is very hard as well.
munchbunny 10y ago
I think you're needlessly questioning the motives of the dev team. While there's something to be said about misaligned incentives, half of a dev's reputation and career advancement comes from a track record of finishing projects.
dang 10y ago
Please don't post drive-by snark to HN. You provoked a whole flamewar with this uncharitable snipe. The following links give an overview of the kind of discussion we're hoping for on HN. Please (re)-read them and post civilly and substantively. We're not against campfires, but throwing matches around carelessly in a dry forest does none of us any good. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html

To abuse a phrase: it is difficult to make a dev finish a project when his livelihood depends on him not finishing it.

by 1_2__3 10y ago

To abuse a phrase: it is difficult to make a dev finish a project when his livelihood depends on him not finishing it.

indy 10y ago

I think the devs deserve slightly more respect. Nobody wants to spend years of their lives on an unfinished product.

scrollaway 10y ago
CIG deserves a lot more respect than that. I'm appalled at the quality of the comments here. They are one of the best studios in the industry right now when it comes to consumer and dev friendliness. Their blog is a treasure trove of interesting posts on the internal development of the game, far more often and rigorously updated than anything else. Seriously, keep the unsourced/unresearched flames to Reddit. You'd think that HN of all communities would be more appreciative of what CIG brings to the table.
- 1_2__3 10y ago
  You're praising them for being developers, rather than actually making anything finished. I'm glad you respect their effort so highly but that doesn't mean anyone else is "flaming" them for pointing out the constantly pushed-out schedules and the convenient fact that they're making plenty of cash without ever releasing anything... and the betas they have released shows an ever-more-ambitious vision when even 3-5 vision-elevations back it was doubtful they could do what they're trying.
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    > You're praising them for being developers, rather than actually making anything finished This is a developer forum more than a gaming forum, so I think it's appropriate, don't you? > plenty of cash without ever releasing anything Come on now. I haven't at all kept up with the game for the past year and half and I can still tell you that they are regularly pushing out content simply because my inbox gets spammed with their content update newsletters. In fact, the latest email is from 17 hours ago, announcing Lumberyard alongside "Alpha 2.6 with Star Marine", their big FPS patch. Saying they "aren't releasing anything" is disingenuous. If you're saying they're not releasing anything you want to play, then sure - they haven't released anything I want to play either. It doesn't change anything.
    - sleepybrett 10y ago
      Sample Email: "Here's another pretend ship you can buy for a game that isn't remotely done!"
      - scrollaway 10y ago
        The post I was replying to claims that the game is releasing zero content. I replied with the most readily available example that it in fact is releasing content. That you are unhappy that they're making money before the game is done is another problem. I don't get why you would be; there's far less chances of the game ever being done if they're not making money than if they are. I dunno what to tell you. Don't buy the ships? I stopped buying the ships a long time ago, nobody needed to tell me to do that.
        mynameisvlad 10y ago
        Nobody said zero content. The parent comment even mentions the Beta (technically, Alpha,) so it's clear they meant that no finished product is being released.
      - Grangar 10y ago
        Yet at this stage other studios with publishers probably have only shown a teaser. The fault isn't with CIG, the fault is with open develoment in general. It's just not going to work.
    - mynameisvlad 10y ago
      Star Citizen started development in 2011. They started crowdfunding four years ago. Hell, studios and companies come and go in that timeframe and they still haven't released the full, finished game that they promised their backers would get released two years ago. [1] People's criticism isn't that they're releasing Alphas. Sure, they have been pretty consistently. It's instead that that's all they've been releasing. There hasn't really been any indication of a coming final release, and timelines keep on being shifted out. [1]: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/descri...
- KON_Air 10y ago
  >You'd think that HN of all communities would be more appreciative of what CIG brings to the table. Like what exactly? How to deliver nothing but keep being funded with internets-fedaykins fighting tooth and nail to keep your image unsullied?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- ebbv 10y ago
  > They are one of the best studios in the industry right now when it comes to consumer and dev friendliness. I think it's hard to judge that when the game hasn't been released. Prior to release you could say that about Peter Molyneux or anybody else who promises the sun, moon and stars. I don't think taking people's money and not delivering anything for 4+ years isn't particularly friendly myself.
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    But... they're not, though. You can at best say that of the original kickstarter backers (a now-tiny minority who backed a very different vision of the game - I'm part of that group, by the way), but not of somebody who's buying a ship today. There is a plethora of information available about the vision of the game and that is very much because of CIG's approach to openness. They make everything available. They release countless youtube videos, blog posts, etc about design work on the game. The people putting money into this, they're not preordering a game they're expecting to come out 3 months later, and then ending up disappointed because it's still in development. And I've seen CIG offer complete refunds (sometimes worth thousands of dollars) to backers unhappy with the vision shift. On these points alone they're doing a hell of a lot better than most game studios out there. And yes, they're "promising sun moon and stars", but unlike Molyneux's games, NMS or whatever other overhyped project you can think of, they're constantly delivering updates about it, delivering content. People will always be disappointed. I've been in the games industry long enough to know that gamers never know what the hell they want, and when they see something they think they want, they're usually wrong about it. Opening the gates of game development for consumers to peek inside, try out the product during its earliest days, is a ballsy move and one that simply isn't getting the credit it deserves, especially here.

flamedoge 10y ago

Closure is very hard as well.

munchbunny 10y ago

I think you're needlessly questioning the motives of the dev team. While there's something to be said about misaligned incentives, half of a dev's reputation and career advancement comes from a track record of finishing projects.

dang 10y ago

Please don't post drive-by snark to HN. You provoked a whole flamewar with this uncharitable snipe. The following links give an overview of the kind of discussion we're hoping for on HN. Please (re)-read them and post civilly and substantively. We're not against campfires, but throwing matches around carelessly in a dry forest does none of us any good. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html