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Anecdote: When I was in middle school I failed horribly at my first year of algebra classes and just couldn't seem to get a grip on the concepts (also I would o

by pault 10y ago

Anecdote: When I was in middle school I failed horribly at my first year of algebra classes and just couldn't seem to get a grip on the concepts (also I would often see "shortcuts" in the problems that would lead to horribly wrong answers). I would score about 50% on every quiz. I could tell my teacher thought I was an idiot. Around that time I started learning music theory and playing in the school band, and learning jazz on the bass. The next year I was at the top of all of my math classes. My teachers thought I was cheating since I had developed a reputation as a "burnout" by that time (there's nothing more satisfying than getting called in after class to take a test in front of a smug teacher and acing it). Also, even though I quit playing music about 10 years ago, to this day I can map out a melody in my head (I can immediately tell the interval between any two notes and string them together to play a melody on the first attempt), and I can pick apart mult-part harmonies because I can hear them in my head. I very clearly remember walking home from school one day and realizing that for the first time I could hear more than one note at a time in my head. Music definitely rewires the brain in amazing ways.

agumonkey 10y ago
Heh, the day I started to isolate overlapping melodies was a huge gift. Makes me happy to read your story. After formal training, and years of wondering what the hell chord progression were about.. the day I could parse harmony in my head and focus on one line in relation to the others, everything became clear. although I cannot measure what I feel in precise way (I couldn't name the intervals) I can improvise counterpoints for a few seconds intuitively. Which is a god damn pleasure. I even enjoy singing dissonant, just for the sake at aiming where the chords don't, and then keep a dissonant counterpoint. It's not dissonnant to me anymore, it's just a different sonic feeling. After all, 13th 17th and many jazz harmonies felt dissonant to me at first.. this is just an extension. I believe that this "explains" more about music than 10 years of music theory classes. ps: That's why I'm often thinking we should teach math to kids with actual activities. Involving your sense is to me critical to internalization of concepts. Later on you can drop the notation. pps: indeed that's the kind of brain rewire I never expected. It opens your mind to other sensations too; and also, even pushing it, it change my view of European geometric explanation of everything. If people, cultures didn't have written music but understood music as you describe .. who has the knowledge here ?
- rrauenza 10y ago
  Is there anything in particular either of you did to learn this? I've been playing saxophone for decades and still can't really parse harmonies that I hear. I sometimes wonder if it's because I play a single monophonic instrument rather than a polyphonic instrument.
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    I play mostly bass dont worry. I think the explanation is odd but easy. I tried singing guitar solo (little wing etc). Tried to expand range, and when it was above, I started to try to sing other instruments or backing vocals. Started with unison and fifth, then 9th etc etc. I also listened to contemporary gospel and acapella (take 6, brothers voices only, sometime they imitate instruments too, Google take 6 - jazz vive). Also jazzfusion guitar chord progression got me to focus on funny progression. John scofield, tribal tech, r. Gatto, return to forever...) All reach your ears.
  - phodo 10y ago
    As a sometimes runner and jazz sax player (intermediate), I can completely relate to this thread on both topics. One thing I noticed when studying a new improv technique or parsing out chords and applying great mental strain, a few days / weeks after said activity, I will dream that I am playing my sax and actually do a pretty nice little improv in my dreams. When I wake up, I can barely remember the melody. This has happened about a half dozen times. My reasoning is that in my waking moments I over think things, e.g. What is the right line to play over this or that progression. I guess in my sleep, I am released from all these heuristics and am able to tap into a deeper, freer layer. A jazz teacher once told me to just forget about the theory - not overthink stuff - and just play what I feel. It sounds cliched but it's good advice. (He was a mathematician by training so could relate ).
    - agumonkey 10y ago
      This is why I didn't invest in theory, I wanted to feel the music. It happens once in a while and I can surf the music's surface for a minute totally free. It's a bit crazy but in these moments the brain really sees things like smooth hills and if you're tuned in, you're like a ball rolling in these, picking a bit where you'd like to roll next, or maybe bounce because why not. There's a thing you get after a while on drums, the internal clock becomes stable. You can play whatever, if you feel you don't make sense, a part of your mind is still ready to catch the groove as if you never played outside the click. In Harmony there's a similar sensation, you don't care about the note, any note on any chord will taste something, but you learn to swerve back into the harmonic movement if you think you're turning into noise, or if you want to express something sweeter to the ear, depending on your emotions and the overall flow. I believe to learn that, the best way is to play off. Off time, off key. And feel what it is to lock in again. Then play on that sensation.

by pault 10y ago

agumonkey 10y ago

Heh, the day I started to isolate overlapping melodies was a huge gift. Makes me happy to read your story. After formal training, and years of wondering what the hell chord progression were about.. the day I could parse harmony in my head and focus on one line in relation to the others, everything became clear. although I cannot measure what I feel in precise way (I couldn't name the intervals) I can improvise counterpoints for a few seconds intuitively. Which is a god damn pleasure. I even enjoy singing dissonant, just for the sake at aiming where the chords don't, and then keep a dissonant counterpoint. It's not dissonnant to me anymore, it's just a different sonic feeling. After all, 13th 17th and many jazz harmonies felt dissonant to me at first.. this is just an extension. I believe that this "explains" more about music than 10 years of music theory classes. ps: That's why I'm often thinking we should teach math to kids with actual activities. Involving your sense is to me critical to internalization of concepts. Later on you can drop the notation. pps: indeed that's the kind of brain rewire I never expected. It opens your mind to other sensations too; and also, even pushing it, it change my view of European geometric explanation of everything. If people, cultures didn't have written music but understood music as you describe .. who has the knowledge here ?

rrauenza 10y ago
Is there anything in particular either of you did to learn this? I've been playing saxophone for decades and still can't really parse harmonies that I hear. I sometimes wonder if it's because I play a single monophonic instrument rather than a polyphonic instrument.
- agumonkey 10y ago
  I play mostly bass dont worry. I think the explanation is odd but easy. I tried singing guitar solo (little wing etc). Tried to expand range, and when it was above, I started to try to sing other instruments or backing vocals. Started with unison and fifth, then 9th etc etc. I also listened to contemporary gospel and acapella (take 6, brothers voices only, sometime they imitate instruments too, Google take 6 - jazz vive). Also jazzfusion guitar chord progression got me to focus on funny progression. John scofield, tribal tech, r. Gatto, return to forever...) All reach your ears.
- phodo 10y ago
  As a sometimes runner and jazz sax player (intermediate), I can completely relate to this thread on both topics. One thing I noticed when studying a new improv technique or parsing out chords and applying great mental strain, a few days / weeks after said activity, I will dream that I am playing my sax and actually do a pretty nice little improv in my dreams. When I wake up, I can barely remember the melody. This has happened about a half dozen times. My reasoning is that in my waking moments I over think things, e.g. What is the right line to play over this or that progression. I guess in my sleep, I am released from all these heuristics and am able to tap into a deeper, freer layer. A jazz teacher once told me to just forget about the theory - not overthink stuff - and just play what I feel. It sounds cliched but it's good advice. (He was a mathematician by training so could relate ).
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    This is why I didn't invest in theory, I wanted to feel the music. It happens once in a while and I can surf the music's surface for a minute totally free. It's a bit crazy but in these moments the brain really sees things like smooth hills and if you're tuned in, you're like a ball rolling in these, picking a bit where you'd like to roll next, or maybe bounce because why not. There's a thing you get after a while on drums, the internal clock becomes stable. You can play whatever, if you feel you don't make sense, a part of your mind is still ready to catch the groove as if you never played outside the click. In Harmony there's a similar sensation, you don't care about the note, any note on any chord will taste something, but you learn to swerve back into the harmonic movement if you think you're turning into noise, or if you want to express something sweeter to the ear, depending on your emotions and the overall flow. I believe to learn that, the best way is to play off. Off time, off key. And feel what it is to lock in again. Then play on that sensation.