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Once you scratch the surface and get to the functional core, you will never want to go back to object-oriented programming. Maybe it's just me, but since I have

by iagooar 10y ago

Once you scratch the surface and get to the functional core, you will never want to go back to object-oriented programming. Maybe it's just me, but since I have tried functional programming, I have never felt the need to go back to OO. Can't say the same about OO, whenever I'm doing it, I kind of tend to design my code as functional as possible. Elixir has it all (well, almost). It's fast, it's compiled AND interpreted, it has a REPL, it has strong concurrency, reliability and scability backed into the VM. It has a simple and beautiful syntax. It has great tooling and is very well documented. The only thing you might miss is static typing. I've been looking for my next programming language of choice after Ruby for almost 2 years now. Clojure was the closest I got to replacing Ruby, but now with Elixir it's just such an obvious choice. If you haven't tried Elixir yet, PLEASE go and do it right now, you won't ever regret it.

junke 10y ago
Is Erlang Object-Oriented? https://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop https://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop Then, my thesis supervisor said "But you're wrong, Erlang is extremely object oriented". He said object oriented languages aren't object oriented. I might think, though I'm not quite sure if I believe this or not, but Erlang might be the only object oriented language because the 3 tenets of object oriented programming are that it's based on message passing, that you have isolation between objects and have polymorphism. Though I must said I am pretty happy with CLOS (Common Lisp Object System), in particular its generic functions.
dozzie 10y ago
> Elixir has it all (well, almost). It's fast, it's [...] Dude, Elixir compiles to BEAM, it's slow as hell. Have you ever compared its processing speed with virtually anything else? It's not processing speed that Erlang is sold about.
- qaq 10y ago
  Slow as hell is a very scientific measurement :) Processing speed for what workload on what hardware? You do realise there are a lot of workloads that need to be optimised for latency? If we take web dev. Phoenix based solutions are about on par with one's based on a typical Go framework like Gin and are significantly faster than something using PHP, Ruby, Node, Python based web frameworks for a real world workload.
  - dozzie 10y ago
    > Slow as hell is a very scientific measurement :) On par with the claim that "Elixir is fast". > Processing speed for what workload on what hardware? Sequential processing, what did you think? BEAM excels at running many sequential processes at the same time, it would be very hard to match that. (And that's why for text processing I use Perl or sometimes Python, but for services that pass data back and forth through network I use Erlang.)
- davedx 10y ago
  This discussion is going in circles. Fast at what? From what I read, Elixir is very fast at I/O based tasks, especially when there is lots of blocking involved. For example orchestration layers that push data between various API's and/or handle many concurrent connections. Languages that compile to the JVM like Scala or Clojure (or Java of course) will probably be faster for computation. I see Elixir as being suitable for the same category of applications as nodejs.
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    > I see Elixir as being suitable for the same category of applications as nodejs While being a hell of a lot saner. https://www.quora.com/How-is-Elixir-Phoenix-better-than-Node-js/answer/Peter-Marreck?__filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=593408976 https://www.quora.com/How-is-Elixir-Phoenix-better-than-Node...
  - dozzie 10y ago
    > From what I read, Elixir is very fast at I/O based tasks, especially when there is lots of blocking involved. Now make two steps back and read this again. What you say is that Elixir is "very fast" when it comes to tasks when Elixir pretty much doesn't do anything, so it being fast or slow doesn't matter. Hardly a definition of "fast". But it is actually true for BEAM machine. It was never intended to be fast, it was intended for running many tasks at the same time (so that none of them starves others for any reason).
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- pmarreck 10y ago
  > slow as hell A bit of an exaggeration. It's not as fast at math as Java. It's quite faster than Ruby (while keeping coder-friendly features such as auto-rollup to bignums). If you use pattern-matching correctly, it is EXTREMELY fast at I/O or binary parsing. That puts it in a unique space of "people who don't want to sit on the JVM yet want a fully-functional language that has an accessible syntax AND macros AND massive concurrency"... Web developers, basically. Let's see your favorite "faster" language do THIS: https://discord.engineering/how-discord-handles-push-request-bursts-of-over-a-million-per-minute-with-elixirs-genstage-8f899f0221b4#.54twgexl0 https://discord.engineering/how-discord-handles-push-request... My experience with Clojure ended when I got a blown-up gross Java stack trace because I went out of bounds on the underlying Java int representation. Fuck that, I consider that "janitorial duties" and not something I should be responsible for as a programmer. YMMV. No offense to you C guys. ;) http://adrian-philipp.com/post/why-elixir-has-great-potential http://adrian-philipp.com/post/why-elixir-has-great-potentia... Check out the chart: https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/133832/21369162/f3bbf0aa-c705-11e6-8fb8-5f163eb47cd4.jpg https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/133832/21369162/f... You know how "simpler is better" from a maintenance standpoint? Elixir has that in spades.
  - dozzie 10y ago
    >> slow as hell > A bit of an exaggeration. Actually, no. Last time I compared BEAM (Erlang) and something else, Erlang code that only parsed text data from a file (CSV) was several times slower than Perl script that parsed that, built a structure, serialized it, and wrote back to a disk file (BerkeleyDB). > It's quite faster than Ruby (while keeping coder-friendly features such as auto-rollup to bignums). I doubt it, unless Ruby (MRI is what I think of) is an extremely poorly written interpreter. > If you use pattern-matching correctly, it is EXTREMELY fast at I/O or binary parsing. It's not. It's slow (I've seen it when comparing with other runtimes). It was never intended to be fast. It was always intended to be convenient and highly concurrent.
    - behrendtio 10y ago
      > Actually, no. Last time I compared BEAM (Erlang) and something else, Erlang code that only parsed text data from a file (CSV) was several times slower than Perl script that parsed that, built a structure, serialized it, and wrote back to a disk file (BerkeleyDB). Yeah, Erlang/Elixir are both not very fast when it comes to stuff like file parsing. Jose, the creator of Elixir pointed that out several times before. But as mentioned before, web developers can greatly benefit from Elixir. > I doubt it, unless Ruby (MRI is what I think of) is an extremely poorly written interpreter. I wrote several things in both languages. CSV parsing is pretty much the same speed, again file handling in Erlang/Elixir. When it comes to real web apps, Elixir is usually faster by a factor of 10x when DBs are involved and 100x when it comes to plain rendering. > It's not. It's slow (I've seen it when comparing with other runtimes). It was never intended to be fast. It was always intended to be convenient and highly concurrent. As others have mentioned, depends on what you think is fast and in what areas. When it comes to web apps, Elixir is way faster than ruby, python and even node. Pattern matching, for instance used for router matching is very fast compared to the techniques used in ruby/python frameworks. Java, Go and several other languages are faster as Erlang/Elixir, of course. But Go is too low level for huge apps and Java is a whole different beast. Basically, Elixir is a nice middle ground to develop fast-enough web apps with high concurrency and easy scalability without sacrificing dev speed and dev fun.
tejinderss 10y ago
How would you compare elixir against clojure ?
- iagooar 10y ago
  They are functional to the core, but pragmatic. They allow you to get stuff done, while focusing on data instead of state of class hierarchies. Clojure runs on the JVM and interops with Java, which can be both an advantage or drawback, depending on who you ask. Personally, I don't enjoy working with the JVM too much, but people who are already using a Java / JVM stack can easily switch to Clojure while still being able to use all their libraries. Elixir runs on top of the Erlang VM which at least feels a lot more lightweight than the JVM, and has a strong focus on distributed, concurrent and fault-tolerant systems. Also, you can interop with Erlang, so you have access to many mature libraries, same as Clojure has on the JVM. Both Clojure and Elixir focus on concurrency and bring first-class support out-of-the-box. Clojure is a Lisp, which in terms of syntax is usually controversial. I personally love it, but a lot of people are overwhelmed by too many parentheses, and I kind of understand them. Elixir has a pretty polished, easy on the eye syntax. Of course, coming from Ruby, I might be a bit biased, would love to hear what people with other backgrounds think about it though. One negative point about Clojure is that it's difficult to have a really smooth and quick development environment, and debugging Clojure can be a tough task, as it basically dumps tons and tons of Java stacktraces that are very difficult to process. Here, Elixir clearly wins, as it has one of the best and most accurate stacktraces and error messages I've seen in a programming language. In the end, I think both are just terrific programming languages and have their own reasons to be. I'd actually love to work someday at a company where people would use Clojure, Elixir and many other functional programming languages, depending on the task at hand and the requirements :)
deleted 10y ago
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by iagooar 10y ago

junke 10y ago

Is Erlang Object-Oriented? https://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop https://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop Then, my thesis supervisor said "But you're wrong, Erlang is extremely object oriented". He said object oriented languages aren't object oriented. I might think, though I'm not quite sure if I believe this or not, but Erlang might be the only object oriented language because the 3 tenets of object oriented programming are that it's based on message passing, that you have isolation between objects and have polymorphism. Though I must said I am pretty happy with CLOS (Common Lisp Object System), in particular its generic functions.

dozzie 10y ago

> Elixir has it all (well, almost). It's fast, it's [...] Dude, Elixir compiles to BEAM, it's slow as hell. Have you ever compared its processing speed with virtually anything else? It's not processing speed that Erlang is sold about.

qaq 10y ago
Slow as hell is a very scientific measurement :) Processing speed for what workload on what hardware? You do realise there are a lot of workloads that need to be optimised for latency? If we take web dev. Phoenix based solutions are about on par with one's based on a typical Go framework like Gin and are significantly faster than something using PHP, Ruby, Node, Python based web frameworks for a real world workload.
- dozzie 10y ago
  > Slow as hell is a very scientific measurement :) On par with the claim that "Elixir is fast". > Processing speed for what workload on what hardware? Sequential processing, what did you think? BEAM excels at running many sequential processes at the same time, it would be very hard to match that. (And that's why for text processing I use Perl or sometimes Python, but for services that pass data back and forth through network I use Erlang.)
davedx 10y ago
This discussion is going in circles. Fast at what? From what I read, Elixir is very fast at I/O based tasks, especially when there is lots of blocking involved. For example orchestration layers that push data between various API's and/or handle many concurrent connections. Languages that compile to the JVM like Scala or Clojure (or Java of course) will probably be faster for computation. I see Elixir as being suitable for the same category of applications as nodejs.
- pmarreck 10y ago
  > I see Elixir as being suitable for the same category of applications as nodejs While being a hell of a lot saner. https://www.quora.com/How-is-Elixir-Phoenix-better-than-Node-js/answer/Peter-Marreck?__filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=593408976 https://www.quora.com/How-is-Elixir-Phoenix-better-than-Node...
- dozzie 10y ago
  > From what I read, Elixir is very fast at I/O based tasks, especially when there is lots of blocking involved. Now make two steps back and read this again. What you say is that Elixir is "very fast" when it comes to tasks when Elixir pretty much doesn't do anything, so it being fast or slow doesn't matter. Hardly a definition of "fast". But it is actually true for BEAM machine. It was never intended to be fast, it was intended for running many tasks at the same time (so that none of them starves others for any reason).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pmarreck 10y ago
> slow as hell A bit of an exaggeration. It's not as fast at math as Java. It's quite faster than Ruby (while keeping coder-friendly features such as auto-rollup to bignums). If you use pattern-matching correctly, it is EXTREMELY fast at I/O or binary parsing. That puts it in a unique space of "people who don't want to sit on the JVM yet want a fully-functional language that has an accessible syntax AND macros AND massive concurrency"... Web developers, basically. Let's see your favorite "faster" language do THIS: https://discord.engineering/how-discord-handles-push-request-bursts-of-over-a-million-per-minute-with-elixirs-genstage-8f899f0221b4#.54twgexl0 https://discord.engineering/how-discord-handles-push-request... My experience with Clojure ended when I got a blown-up gross Java stack trace because I went out of bounds on the underlying Java int representation. Fuck that, I consider that "janitorial duties" and not something I should be responsible for as a programmer. YMMV. No offense to you C guys. ;) http://adrian-philipp.com/post/why-elixir-has-great-potential http://adrian-philipp.com/post/why-elixir-has-great-potentia... Check out the chart: https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/133832/21369162/f3bbf0aa-c705-11e6-8fb8-5f163eb47cd4.jpg https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/133832/21369162/f... You know how "simpler is better" from a maintenance standpoint? Elixir has that in spades.
- dozzie 10y ago
  >> slow as hell > A bit of an exaggeration. Actually, no. Last time I compared BEAM (Erlang) and something else, Erlang code that only parsed text data from a file (CSV) was several times slower than Perl script that parsed that, built a structure, serialized it, and wrote back to a disk file (BerkeleyDB). > It's quite faster than Ruby (while keeping coder-friendly features such as auto-rollup to bignums). I doubt it, unless Ruby (MRI is what I think of) is an extremely poorly written interpreter. > If you use pattern-matching correctly, it is EXTREMELY fast at I/O or binary parsing. It's not. It's slow (I've seen it when comparing with other runtimes). It was never intended to be fast. It was always intended to be convenient and highly concurrent.
  - behrendtio 10y ago
    > Actually, no. Last time I compared BEAM (Erlang) and something else, Erlang code that only parsed text data from a file (CSV) was several times slower than Perl script that parsed that, built a structure, serialized it, and wrote back to a disk file (BerkeleyDB). Yeah, Erlang/Elixir are both not very fast when it comes to stuff like file parsing. Jose, the creator of Elixir pointed that out several times before. But as mentioned before, web developers can greatly benefit from Elixir. > I doubt it, unless Ruby (MRI is what I think of) is an extremely poorly written interpreter. I wrote several things in both languages. CSV parsing is pretty much the same speed, again file handling in Erlang/Elixir. When it comes to real web apps, Elixir is usually faster by a factor of 10x when DBs are involved and 100x when it comes to plain rendering. > It's not. It's slow (I've seen it when comparing with other runtimes). It was never intended to be fast. It was always intended to be convenient and highly concurrent. As others have mentioned, depends on what you think is fast and in what areas. When it comes to web apps, Elixir is way faster than ruby, python and even node. Pattern matching, for instance used for router matching is very fast compared to the techniques used in ruby/python frameworks. Java, Go and several other languages are faster as Erlang/Elixir, of course. But Go is too low level for huge apps and Java is a whole different beast. Basically, Elixir is a nice middle ground to develop fast-enough web apps with high concurrency and easy scalability without sacrificing dev speed and dev fun.

tejinderss 10y ago

How would you compare elixir against clojure ?

iagooar 10y ago
They are functional to the core, but pragmatic. They allow you to get stuff done, while focusing on data instead of state of class hierarchies. Clojure runs on the JVM and interops with Java, which can be both an advantage or drawback, depending on who you ask. Personally, I don't enjoy working with the JVM too much, but people who are already using a Java / JVM stack can easily switch to Clojure while still being able to use all their libraries. Elixir runs on top of the Erlang VM which at least feels a lot more lightweight than the JVM, and has a strong focus on distributed, concurrent and fault-tolerant systems. Also, you can interop with Erlang, so you have access to many mature libraries, same as Clojure has on the JVM. Both Clojure and Elixir focus on concurrency and bring first-class support out-of-the-box. Clojure is a Lisp, which in terms of syntax is usually controversial. I personally love it, but a lot of people are overwhelmed by too many parentheses, and I kind of understand them. Elixir has a pretty polished, easy on the eye syntax. Of course, coming from Ruby, I might be a bit biased, would love to hear what people with other backgrounds think about it though. One negative point about Clojure is that it's difficult to have a really smooth and quick development environment, and debugging Clojure can be a tough task, as it basically dumps tons and tons of Java stacktraces that are very difficult to process. Here, Elixir clearly wins, as it has one of the best and most accurate stacktraces and error messages I've seen in a programming language. In the end, I think both are just terrific programming languages and have their own reasons to be. I'd actually love to work someday at a company where people would use Clojure, Elixir and many other functional programming languages, depending on the task at hand and the requirements :)

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