5 ms·

How We Got from Doc Brown to Walter White

46 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

ArkyBeagle 10y ago
We got to Walter White because that was the design goal of "Breaking Bad" - to turn Mr Chips into Scarface. The mechanism in use was, IMO, a partial ( and perhaps oscillating/varying) reductio ad absurbum on the very idea of heroes and villains in narrative. Eastwood's played the antihero for decades now. It's not new. But it's Science! ( ala Thomas Dolby's "She Blinded Me With Science"). Sort-of yawn. That way lies ex deux machina and Merlin figures...
aaron-lebo 10y ago
The show's been around for awhile now, but there's a spoiler which takes suspense out of a major scene in the first paragraph.... To me what most of these portrayals lack is how mundane real scientists are. Completely brilliant in one area and boring, ignorant, and ill-informed in others - just like anyone else. Neil Degrasse Tyson (just one popular science figure today) is as likely to have a valid opinion on politics or history as Joe Montana - but you wouldn't think it. There's a very real appeal to authority inherent in it, but as long as you can appeal to a scientist - you're alright. What's slightly terrifying to me is the worship of "science" and it being used to justify every Reddit thread, when in reality we're training the public to worship scientism. Doesn't Big Bang Theory run on the same network as Two Broke Girls after football games? It's popularity might not have much to do with science...
- DanBC 10y ago
  > What's slightly terrifying to me is the worship of "science" and it being used to justify every Reddit thread, You see a lot of it on HN too. Someone will make a mostly bullshit claim, and then when asked to support it will provide a link to a newspaper report of a single study. Or people will respond to links to well run meta analysis with contrarian anecdote.
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- WalterBright 10y ago
  People have considered celebrity opinions as mattering more than lay opinions. Why would an actor good at reading lines written for him by others have any insight into economics, international relations, education, or really anything other than acting? But hey, we had Sally Fields testify before Congress about farm issues because she'd played a farmer in a movie. The absurdity of it was mind boggling.
- base698 10y ago
  "With the rise of Technopoly, one of those thought-worlds disappears. Technopoly eliminates alternatives to itself in precisely the way Aldous Huxley outlined in Brave New World. It does not make them illegal. It does not make them immoral. It does not even make them unpopular. It makes them invisible and therefore irrelevant. And it does so by redefining what we mean by religion, by art, by family, by politics, by history, by truth, by privacy, by intelligence, so that our definitions fit its new requirements. Technopoly, in other words, is totalitarian technocracy." Neil Postman Technopoly
- thesimpsons1022 10y ago
  NDT's political views could be informed by science though. One party clearly does deny science and from purely that perspective one could make an informed decision. Furthermore, knowing that someone is intelligent likely to reason about politics does influence me to put more weight in what they say than otherwise. Of course one should also examine the arguments themselves but one can be a little more certain they are well thought out and worth examining if they come from certain sources.
  - ceejayoz 10y ago
    > NDT's political views could be informed by science though. Sure, but those political views probably shouldn't be given extra weight just because he's a scientist unless they're directly related to his field. As an example, he's had some misfires on biology: https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/708427052433678336 https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/708427052433678336
    - peteretep 10y ago
      > shouldn't be given extra > weight just because he's > a scientist Don't they get him over the (admittedly fairly low) bar of "able to think rationaly"?
      - buzzybee 10y ago
        Only within topics where he has developed a sense of self-critique. It's commonplace for people to have a strong ability to be able to work through a situation rationally when it's not also tied to something in their emotions. And when someone has developed expertise they also have a common understanding with other experts. So NDT can speak with some authority on some science topics that he has directly studied. That does not make him a political scientist or philosopher, though, or even a competent student outside of his field.
      - ceejayoz 10y ago
        > Don't they get him over the (admittedly fairly low) bar of "able to think rationaly" Not necessarily. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease
- jhbadger 10y ago
  The thing is, scientists really do have a greater chance of having an informed opinion of politics, or history, or any other subject than do actors or football players because to be a scientist you have to know how to evaluate claims based on evidence. That doesn't mean that their opinions are 100% correct of course, but yes, being trained in the skill of thinking makes their opinions more valuable than those whose skills are in looking good or running fast. "Scientism" is a meaningless word because every question that can be answered is part of science in the broad sense (which includes history and social science in addition to laboratory science).
  - ArkyBeagle 10y ago
    Very few people have even remotely informed opinions on politics or history. Both fields are rife with propaganda. While you can trust his scholarship to 11 nines, you have to be careful with Chomsky's conclusions. He's extremely good at framing the questions, so it's not like you have to disagree much. I just disagree with his understanding of simple venality, and a little public choice theory would explain much of what he misses.
  - RodericDay 10y ago
    > "Scientism" is a meaningless word What do you mean by this? People prematurely assuming that science has a good explanation for something it doesn't has a long and storied history. Scientists saying women couldn't vote because blood flowing to their ovaries fled the brain causing poor decisions, saying that black people had lower IQs because they had smaller craniums, that the Irish were a totally different inferior race than whites, etc. And people latching onto their authority as justification. Most recently, many outlets have discussed the Clinton campaign's over-reliance on "data" and "science-like" methods, via their ADA "algorithm" and a refusal to go for grassroots tactics and instead trusting analysis of millenials or w/e. "Scientism" is alive and well. People who think more numbers == more truth, even without putting those numbers and their underlying generating assumptions to any scrutiny, are very very plentiful.
    - jhbadger 10y ago
      But science is literally the only way we have of explaining anything. Yes, many 19th century opinions are now known as incorrect. But how do we know that? Because later science showed that ovaries don't work that way and so on. And while Clinton's campaign was unsuccessful, arguing the merits of various strategies that could have been taken is clearly a form of social science, not an alternative to science. If "scientism" is a real thing there have to be answerable questions that not addressable by science.
usrusr 10y ago
Walter White is not really about him being a scientist, but about him being a grown-up, trained professional. Or maybe that's just supporting the point of the article, that scientists in fiction are not lab-coated magicians anymore, but just one of many breeds of white collar workers. But strictly speaking, I still would think of Walter White as a former scientist at best, because as a school teacher who clearly does not do research. Just like being trained in computer science does not make you a scientist, working in computer science research does.

46 points by pmcpinto 10y ago

We got to Walter White because that was the design goal of "Breaking Bad" - to turn Mr Chips into Scarface. The mechanism in use was, IMO, a partial ( and perhaps oscillating/varying) reductio ad absurbum on the very idea of heroes and villains in narrative. Eastwood's played the antihero for decades now. It's not new. But it's Science! ( ala Thomas Dolby's "She Blinded Me With Science"). Sort-of yawn. That way lies ex deux machina and Merlin figures...

aaron-lebo 10y ago

The show's been around for awhile now, but there's a spoiler which takes suspense out of a major scene in the first paragraph.... To me what most of these portrayals lack is how mundane real scientists are. Completely brilliant in one area and boring, ignorant, and ill-informed in others - just like anyone else. Neil Degrasse Tyson (just one popular science figure today) is as likely to have a valid opinion on politics or history as Joe Montana - but you wouldn't think it. There's a very real appeal to authority inherent in it, but as long as you can appeal to a scientist - you're alright. What's slightly terrifying to me is the worship of "science" and it being used to justify every Reddit thread, when in reality we're training the public to worship scientism. Doesn't Big Bang Theory run on the same network as Two Broke Girls after football games? It's popularity might not have much to do with science...

DanBC 10y ago
> What's slightly terrifying to me is the worship of "science" and it being used to justify every Reddit thread, You see a lot of it on HN too. Someone will make a mostly bullshit claim, and then when asked to support it will provide a link to a newspaper report of a single study. Or people will respond to links to well run meta analysis with contrarian anecdote.
- deleted 10y ago
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WalterBright 10y ago
People have considered celebrity opinions as mattering more than lay opinions. Why would an actor good at reading lines written for him by others have any insight into economics, international relations, education, or really anything other than acting? But hey, we had Sally Fields testify before Congress about farm issues because she'd played a farmer in a movie. The absurdity of it was mind boggling.
base698 10y ago
"With the rise of Technopoly, one of those thought-worlds disappears. Technopoly eliminates alternatives to itself in precisely the way Aldous Huxley outlined in Brave New World. It does not make them illegal. It does not make them immoral. It does not even make them unpopular. It makes them invisible and therefore irrelevant. And it does so by redefining what we mean by religion, by art, by family, by politics, by history, by truth, by privacy, by intelligence, so that our definitions fit its new requirements. Technopoly, in other words, is totalitarian technocracy." Neil Postman Technopoly
thesimpsons1022 10y ago
NDT's political views could be informed by science though. One party clearly does deny science and from purely that perspective one could make an informed decision. Furthermore, knowing that someone is intelligent likely to reason about politics does influence me to put more weight in what they say than otherwise. Of course one should also examine the arguments themselves but one can be a little more certain they are well thought out and worth examining if they come from certain sources.
- ceejayoz 10y ago
  > NDT's political views could be informed by science though. Sure, but those political views probably shouldn't be given extra weight just because he's a scientist unless they're directly related to his field. As an example, he's had some misfires on biology: https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/708427052433678336 https://twitter.com/neiltyson/status/708427052433678336
  - peteretep 10y ago
    > shouldn't be given extra > weight just because he's > a scientist Don't they get him over the (admittedly fairly low) bar of "able to think rationaly"?
    - buzzybee 10y ago
      Only within topics where he has developed a sense of self-critique. It's commonplace for people to have a strong ability to be able to work through a situation rationally when it's not also tied to something in their emotions. And when someone has developed expertise they also have a common understanding with other experts. So NDT can speak with some authority on some science topics that he has directly studied. That does not make him a political scientist or philosopher, though, or even a competent student outside of his field.
    - ceejayoz 10y ago
      > Don't they get him over the (admittedly fairly low) bar of "able to think rationaly" Not necessarily. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease
jhbadger 10y ago
The thing is, scientists really do have a greater chance of having an informed opinion of politics, or history, or any other subject than do actors or football players because to be a scientist you have to know how to evaluate claims based on evidence. That doesn't mean that their opinions are 100% correct of course, but yes, being trained in the skill of thinking makes their opinions more valuable than those whose skills are in looking good or running fast. "Scientism" is a meaningless word because every question that can be answered is part of science in the broad sense (which includes history and social science in addition to laboratory science).
- ArkyBeagle 10y ago
  Very few people have even remotely informed opinions on politics or history. Both fields are rife with propaganda. While you can trust his scholarship to 11 nines, you have to be careful with Chomsky's conclusions. He's extremely good at framing the questions, so it's not like you have to disagree much. I just disagree with his understanding of simple venality, and a little public choice theory would explain much of what he misses.
- RodericDay 10y ago
  > "Scientism" is a meaningless word What do you mean by this? People prematurely assuming that science has a good explanation for something it doesn't has a long and storied history. Scientists saying women couldn't vote because blood flowing to their ovaries fled the brain causing poor decisions, saying that black people had lower IQs because they had smaller craniums, that the Irish were a totally different inferior race than whites, etc. And people latching onto their authority as justification. Most recently, many outlets have discussed the Clinton campaign's over-reliance on "data" and "science-like" methods, via their ADA "algorithm" and a refusal to go for grassroots tactics and instead trusting analysis of millenials or w/e. "Scientism" is alive and well. People who think more numbers == more truth, even without putting those numbers and their underlying generating assumptions to any scrutiny, are very very plentiful.
  - jhbadger 10y ago
    But science is literally the only way we have of explaining anything. Yes, many 19th century opinions are now known as incorrect. But how do we know that? Because later science showed that ovaries don't work that way and so on. And while Clinton's campaign was unsuccessful, arguing the merits of various strategies that could have been taken is clearly a form of social science, not an alternative to science. If "scientism" is a real thing there have to be answerable questions that not addressable by science.

usrusr 10y ago

Walter White is not really about him being a scientist, but about him being a grown-up, trained professional. Or maybe that's just supporting the point of the article, that scientists in fiction are not lab-coated magicians anymore, but just one of many breeds of white collar workers. But strictly speaking, I still would think of Walter White as a former scientist at best, because as a school teacher who clearly does not do research. Just like being trained in computer science does not make you a scientist, working in computer science research does.