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> Vacating and dismissal are not findings of innocence in the legal system. Actual legal question not related to the specifics of this case: why not? Doesn't t

by scott00 10y ago

> Vacating and dismissal are not findings of innocence in the legal system. Actual legal question not related to the specifics of this case: why not? Doesn't the US justice system operate under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty?" Doesn't vacating a conviction mean that the former convict has not been proven guilty?

kefka 10y ago
"It's OK. We'll know it when we see it." - Paraphrased from US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it
TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago
He was proven guilty. Once you're proven guilty, you're guilty until proven innocent.
philipov 10y ago
The confusion is caused by the loose use of the word 'innocent'. Technically, we're talking about acquittal, as the US Constitution provides against double jeopardy[0] if you have been acquitted of a crime already. This is the sense in which a dismissal/vacation is not a 'finding of innocence,' as opposed to the 'presumption of innocence' to which you referred. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Jeopardy_Clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Jeopardy_Clause
will_brown 10y ago
>why not? Doesn't the US justice system operate under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty?" Innocent is not a finding or disposition in the Court. You are likely to find the following dispositions in a given criminal case: guilty; not guilty/acquittal; no info (the State drops the case prior to trial but after filing charges, usually due to lack of evidence); nolle prosequi (State drops charges, usually in exchange for a plea or diversion program); withholding of adjudication (closing ones case without a formal conviction). "Innocent until proven guilty" is very nice sounding, but the reality reads more like this: "the State shall have the burden to prove all the elements of the charges it brings against a criminal defendant beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt". The difference, the Defense doesn't have to prove its innocence, it doesn't have to do anything, the defense can just sit quietly and watch the State fail to prove its case.

by scott00 10y ago

kefka 10y ago

"It's OK. We'll know it when we see it." - Paraphrased from US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

TheGrumpyBrit 10y ago

He was proven guilty. Once you're proven guilty, you're guilty until proven innocent.

philipov 10y ago

The confusion is caused by the loose use of the word 'innocent'. Technically, we're talking about acquittal, as the US Constitution provides against double jeopardy[0] if you have been acquitted of a crime already. This is the sense in which a dismissal/vacation is not a 'finding of innocence,' as opposed to the 'presumption of innocence' to which you referred. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Jeopardy_Clause https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Jeopardy_Clause

will_brown 10y ago

>why not? Doesn't the US justice system operate under the principle of "innocent until proven guilty?" Innocent is not a finding or disposition in the Court. You are likely to find the following dispositions in a given criminal case: guilty; not guilty/acquittal; no info (the State drops the case prior to trial but after filing charges, usually due to lack of evidence); nolle prosequi (State drops charges, usually in exchange for a plea or diversion program); withholding of adjudication (closing ones case without a formal conviction). "Innocent until proven guilty" is very nice sounding, but the reality reads more like this: "the State shall have the burden to prove all the elements of the charges it brings against a criminal defendant beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt". The difference, the Defense doesn't have to prove its innocence, it doesn't have to do anything, the defense can just sit quietly and watch the State fail to prove its case.