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> A move towards analysis like this would concern me a lot I'm an American who has never left the country and probably never will apart from a planned cruise n

> A move towards analysis like this would concern me a lot I'm an American who has never left the country and probably never will apart from a planned cruise next year, and this scares the shit out of me. It's definitely a chilling effect, which I believe is the point. The US is about to become the very thing it ridicules North Korea for: isolationist, nationalist, and possibly fascist (the last based on Trump's picks for a racist filled far-right cabinet to go along with the Republican-controlled congress and his stated desire to have an all-Republican Supreme Court). These are dark days ahead.

csydas 10y ago
As a frequent internationally traveling U.S. citizen I understand your newfound reluctance to travel but in light of the NSA reveals this is mostly just theatre in my opinion. With how much data is already collected when you pass a U.S. Border this is more just formally doing what they likely already can do. When you cross you scan your passport several times, pose for a new picture of yourself for a database, present you itinerary on how you got to the border, and non-native citizens get 10-printed on site by digital fingerprint readers. There's a very tiny leap to connect that to the already publicly available information, which likely already has a few thin threads connecting you. I would suggest that you shouldn't let it intimidate you from traveling if you are lucky enough to be able to. The government will do what it will do regardless. If it assuages your fears slightly, all through the Ukraine crisis and the standoffs with turkey and with the U.S. over Syria, I traveled to and from Russia. One time I was held for extended questioning, but it was mostly corroborating my story I think. The more paranoid side of me says this is to try to discourage people from travel and spending money outside the U.S., so the best "up yours, Uncle Sam" to me seems to be travel as much as possible. And while rogue or borish border guards do happen, most of my experiences with border guards are employees who wish they were doing absolutely anything else and just process as they're required. It is a scary precedent happening, but nothing they're doing is new, it's just ou in the open now. So do as you would, but I'd not give them the satisfaction of me not traveling.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  > I would suggest that you shouldn't let it intimidate you from traveling if you are lucky enough to be able to. My fear isn't in leaving the country, it's that they might find the slightest reason to not let me back in. Granted, I'm probably not even on the radar; I'm a boring person who isn't politically active and I don't hold any extreme views (that I'm aware of). However, I usually vote Libertarian, I'm nearly 40 years old and have never had a passport, and I have never drank alcohol, smoked, or taken illegal drugs my whole life. I just wonder if I fit the profile of some sort of Leftist-Straightedge punk that would be stopped and questioned every time I'm near the border. I've read horror stories of journalists and other heavily scrutinized types who, despite being law abiding US citizens, were detained for days or even weeks at the border in the so called "Constitution-free zones". Then again, I'm probably worried over absolutely nothing. My wife has traveled outside the US several times in her adult life with zero issues; we mostly hold the same views, mostly vote the same way, and she abstains from alcohol/drugs/tobacco as I do.
  - forgetsusername 10y ago
    >just wonder if I fit the profile of some sort of Leftist-Straightedge punk You called the entire new cabinet of the incoming President "racist" in your first comment. Minor, yes, but would you be surprised to be painted with such a "liberal" brush? That's the scary thing about your Internet activity being monitored.
  - cema 10y ago
    slightest reason to not let me back in I think if you are a US citizen there is no way they can "not let" you back in, but they certainly can make your entry quite unpleasant. I have been flying from and to the US about once a year in the past quarter of a century. It used to be that crossing the US border was tedious, long lines and all that (especially in airports like JFK) but otherwise efficient and professional. In recent years it changed, at least in my perception, to the effect that I feel the US border is less pleasant than the Russian border. At least as a citizen of both countries I am unlikely to not be able to enter either (exit is another matter). DHS is a mess.
tehlike 10y ago
For that kind of thing, I believe one of the escape route is getting something like Global Entry, and ideally getting these checks ahead of time instead of at the border after waiting for hours in the line. It may not make sense for you if you do not often travel internationally, but as someone whose family is living abroad, it's one big timesaver. edit: grammar.
prawn 10y ago
Why are you not interested in leaving the country? So many incredible places in the world, including within the US. I did wonder if someone else with Trump's own history of tweets would put them on some sort of low-level watchlist. More nukes, more retribution, etc. That's more divisive than anything I typically say!
- ashark 10y ago
  > Why are you not interested in leaving the country? So many incredible places in the world, including within the US. I have traveled overseas, but I can imagine why someone in the US wouldn't be interested. Overseas air travel outside of 1st class is a terrible experience. If one had even a touch of claustrophobia it'd be true torture. Conditions are even worse in coach on domestic flights (if you're not under average height, at least for a guy, your knees will be jammed into the seat in front of you the whole flight) though at least those are usually short(er)—but if you don't live on the nearest coast to your destination and near one of a handful of overseas hub airports you'll get a taste of that on top of the international flight. Hooray. You could fly 1st class but that's way more expensive. Americans tend not to have much leave. The cost-per-day of a trip involving an overseas flight is much higher if you go for 9 days versus, say, 20, and a higher percentage of the trip is lost to recovering from the flight and the time change. That makes it less appealing.
  - morganvachon 10y ago
    You've pretty much nailed it for me; I'm a tall guy (6'4" or 193cm), I'm mildly claustrophobic, and I get stressed on any public transit. I only get two weeks of leave per year, which I have to spend about 40% on certain days like our wedding anniversary and the few camping trips we take every year. We don't make a lot of money and we're trying to pay off old debt and the house, so there's not much left over for traveling outside the Southeast (we live just outside Atlanta, Georgia). All of that said, it's not that I'm not interested in traveling, it's just that it's not feasible right now, and I fear that once it becomes so, the US will be so isolationist that it will be much more difficult to enter and leave.

csydas 10y ago

As a frequent internationally traveling U.S. citizen I understand your newfound reluctance to travel but in light of the NSA reveals this is mostly just theatre in my opinion. With how much data is already collected when you pass a U.S. Border this is more just formally doing what they likely already can do. When you cross you scan your passport several times, pose for a new picture of yourself for a database, present you itinerary on how you got to the border, and non-native citizens get 10-printed on site by digital fingerprint readers. There's a very tiny leap to connect that to the already publicly available information, which likely already has a few thin threads connecting you. I would suggest that you shouldn't let it intimidate you from traveling if you are lucky enough to be able to. The government will do what it will do regardless. If it assuages your fears slightly, all through the Ukraine crisis and the standoffs with turkey and with the U.S. over Syria, I traveled to and from Russia. One time I was held for extended questioning, but it was mostly corroborating my story I think. The more paranoid side of me says this is to try to discourage people from travel and spending money outside the U.S., so the best "up yours, Uncle Sam" to me seems to be travel as much as possible. And while rogue or borish border guards do happen, most of my experiences with border guards are employees who wish they were doing absolutely anything else and just process as they're required. It is a scary precedent happening, but nothing they're doing is new, it's just ou in the open now. So do as you would, but I'd not give them the satisfaction of me not traveling.

morganvachon 10y ago
> I would suggest that you shouldn't let it intimidate you from traveling if you are lucky enough to be able to. My fear isn't in leaving the country, it's that they might find the slightest reason to not let me back in. Granted, I'm probably not even on the radar; I'm a boring person who isn't politically active and I don't hold any extreme views (that I'm aware of). However, I usually vote Libertarian, I'm nearly 40 years old and have never had a passport, and I have never drank alcohol, smoked, or taken illegal drugs my whole life. I just wonder if I fit the profile of some sort of Leftist-Straightedge punk that would be stopped and questioned every time I'm near the border. I've read horror stories of journalists and other heavily scrutinized types who, despite being law abiding US citizens, were detained for days or even weeks at the border in the so called "Constitution-free zones". Then again, I'm probably worried over absolutely nothing. My wife has traveled outside the US several times in her adult life with zero issues; we mostly hold the same views, mostly vote the same way, and she abstains from alcohol/drugs/tobacco as I do.
- forgetsusername 10y ago
  >just wonder if I fit the profile of some sort of Leftist-Straightedge punk You called the entire new cabinet of the incoming President "racist" in your first comment. Minor, yes, but would you be surprised to be painted with such a "liberal" brush? That's the scary thing about your Internet activity being monitored.
- cema 10y ago
  slightest reason to not let me back in I think if you are a US citizen there is no way they can "not let" you back in, but they certainly can make your entry quite unpleasant. I have been flying from and to the US about once a year in the past quarter of a century. It used to be that crossing the US border was tedious, long lines and all that (especially in airports like JFK) but otherwise efficient and professional. In recent years it changed, at least in my perception, to the effect that I feel the US border is less pleasant than the Russian border. At least as a citizen of both countries I am unlikely to not be able to enter either (exit is another matter). DHS is a mess.

tehlike 10y ago

For that kind of thing, I believe one of the escape route is getting something like Global Entry, and ideally getting these checks ahead of time instead of at the border after waiting for hours in the line. It may not make sense for you if you do not often travel internationally, but as someone whose family is living abroad, it's one big timesaver. edit: grammar.

prawn 10y ago

Why are you not interested in leaving the country? So many incredible places in the world, including within the US. I did wonder if someone else with Trump's own history of tweets would put them on some sort of low-level watchlist. More nukes, more retribution, etc. That's more divisive than anything I typically say!

ashark 10y ago
> Why are you not interested in leaving the country? So many incredible places in the world, including within the US. I have traveled overseas, but I can imagine why someone in the US wouldn't be interested. Overseas air travel outside of 1st class is a terrible experience. If one had even a touch of claustrophobia it'd be true torture. Conditions are even worse in coach on domestic flights (if you're not under average height, at least for a guy, your knees will be jammed into the seat in front of you the whole flight) though at least those are usually short(er)—but if you don't live on the nearest coast to your destination and near one of a handful of overseas hub airports you'll get a taste of that on top of the international flight. Hooray. You could fly 1st class but that's way more expensive. Americans tend not to have much leave. The cost-per-day of a trip involving an overseas flight is much higher if you go for 9 days versus, say, 20, and a higher percentage of the trip is lost to recovering from the flight and the time change. That makes it less appealing.
- morganvachon 10y ago
  You've pretty much nailed it for me; I'm a tall guy (6'4" or 193cm), I'm mildly claustrophobic, and I get stressed on any public transit. I only get two weeks of leave per year, which I have to spend about 40% on certain days like our wedding anniversary and the few camping trips we take every year. We don't make a lot of money and we're trying to pay off old debt and the house, so there's not much left over for traveling outside the Southeast (we live just outside Atlanta, Georgia). All of that said, it's not that I'm not interested in traveling, it's just that it's not feasible right now, and I fear that once it becomes so, the US will be so isolationist that it will be much more difficult to enter and leave.