4 ms·

Brits figured this shit out a long time ago: you talk about the weather.

Mz 10y ago
Brits also are much more okay with embracing the idea that there are separate classes. Americans like to think we are better than that and (like to imagine that we) treat all people in some idealized egalitarian fashion. In practice, it is a lot, lot harder to treat everyone equally well and try to ignore class divides than to have protocols in place for bridging the gap between people explicitly of different classes.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc. https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes-of-united-states.html https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes... Other writers have recognized and described it too: http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html Even our very own Michael O. Church: https://www.meetup.com/Philadelphia-Political-Agnostics/messages/boards/thread/49570124 https://www.meetup.com/Philadelphia-Political-Agnostics/mess... I'm with Mz on this - we should start explicitly recognizing our caste system. It's been helpful to me; once I figured out our castes and where I live in it, suddenly a lot of things clicked into place. For example, why do so many people not recognize me as white? It's because I don't give off the cultural signals of being upper caste (Brahmin in Moldbug's taxonomy) but I'm solidly within Brahim professional and social circles. Given these mismatched signals, Kashmiri or Argentinian seems like the most plausible hypothesis.
  - smallnamespace 10y ago
    The fear of recognizing a caste system is that once you use words to describe something, the words themselves become a tool to reinforce and then codify that system. I mean, India itself seems to be a prototypical example of that.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      Is it? The caste system is mostly defunct. In my experience (admittedly, as an outsider who lives in mostly elite circles) there is actually a more significant caste-like system, but much like in the states there are no real words to describe it. The best explanation I've seen of it is Chetan Bhaget's novel Half Girlfriend: http://amzn.to/2im0Cxq http://amzn.to/2im0Cxq It's a masala romance novel, blah, but it's the only real discussion of the issue that I've seen. He's also written a few newspaper columns on it: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimist/anatomy-of-a-liberal-indian-liberals-do-not-offer-solutions-they-use-the-term-as-a-class-marker/ http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimi... http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimist/let-there-be-english-but-abolish-caste-system-around-the-language/ http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimi... Very few people can even discuss these subtle, un-named caste systems, let alone argue against them. I can't stand Chetan Bhaget, yet I link to him anyway simply because he's really one of the very few who actually discuss it. Consider how difficult it is to even discuss Trump's victory in these terms as well. I think that the best protection the caste system has is that we refuse to even give it a word.
    - danharaj 10y ago
      On the contrary, without the words to describe such structures, they remain hidden from discourse and direct criticism. This protects the implicit structures by rendering them unassailable by democratic processes.
      - peteretep 10y ago
        I am half remembering an issue with feminism and hierarchies; groups would naturally form hierarchies anyway, but without any formalism or recognition of them, the effects were made far more insidious
- peteretep 10y ago
  European class system is a hack around wealth in a society not always being distributed to the "right" people. Modern American class system simply assumes it has been distributed correctly and works around that.
chongli 10y ago
That depends on where you live. For me, it's fine, because we have lots of interesting and/or annoying weather. For others, it's the same boring sunny day every day.
bb101 10y ago
The weather is truly the #1 icebreaker here in the UK. However, if you've spoken to someone at least twice before and still only keep talking about the weather then you start to look dim. Amongst the upper and upper-middle classes, the concept and practice of politeness ensures conversation. Children are taught at a young age to take an interest (or at least feign an interest) in the other person and think of a line of conversation that may be appropriate. If you chat to a Brit and get beyond the weather, you'll notice that you will be asked a lot of questions. It's part conversation and part fact-finding. Some people would rather fall off the end of the Earth than ask where the other person went to school (i.e. it's rude to pry), but with 20 little questions we can work all that out and carry a conversation at the same time.

Mz 10y ago

Brits also are much more okay with embracing the idea that there are separate classes. Americans like to think we are better than that and (like to imagine that we) treat all people in some idealized egalitarian fashion. In practice, it is a lot, lot harder to treat everyone equally well and try to ignore class divides than to have protocols in place for bridging the gap between people explicitly of different classes.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
yummyfajitas 10y ago
It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc. https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes-of-united-states.html https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes... Other writers have recognized and described it too: http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html http://siderea.livejournal.com/1260265.html Even our very own Michael O. Church: https://www.meetup.com/Philadelphia-Political-Agnostics/messages/boards/thread/49570124 https://www.meetup.com/Philadelphia-Political-Agnostics/mess... I'm with Mz on this - we should start explicitly recognizing our caste system. It's been helpful to me; once I figured out our castes and where I live in it, suddenly a lot of things clicked into place. For example, why do so many people not recognize me as white? It's because I don't give off the cultural signals of being upper caste (Brahmin in Moldbug's taxonomy) but I'm solidly within Brahim professional and social circles. Given these mismatched signals, Kashmiri or Argentinian seems like the most plausible hypothesis.
- smallnamespace 10y ago
  The fear of recognizing a caste system is that once you use words to describe something, the words themselves become a tool to reinforce and then codify that system. I mean, India itself seems to be a prototypical example of that.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    Is it? The caste system is mostly defunct. In my experience (admittedly, as an outsider who lives in mostly elite circles) there is actually a more significant caste-like system, but much like in the states there are no real words to describe it. The best explanation I've seen of it is Chetan Bhaget's novel Half Girlfriend: http://amzn.to/2im0Cxq http://amzn.to/2im0Cxq It's a masala romance novel, blah, but it's the only real discussion of the issue that I've seen. He's also written a few newspaper columns on it: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimist/anatomy-of-a-liberal-indian-liberals-do-not-offer-solutions-they-use-the-term-as-a-class-marker/ http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimi... http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimist/let-there-be-english-but-abolish-caste-system-around-the-language/ http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/The-underage-optimi... Very few people can even discuss these subtle, un-named caste systems, let alone argue against them. I can't stand Chetan Bhaget, yet I link to him anyway simply because he's really one of the very few who actually discuss it. Consider how difficult it is to even discuss Trump's victory in these terms as well. I think that the best protection the caste system has is that we refuse to even give it a word.
  - danharaj 10y ago
    On the contrary, without the words to describe such structures, they remain hidden from discourse and direct criticism. This protects the implicit structures by rendering them unassailable by democratic processes.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      I am half remembering an issue with feminism and hierarchies; groups would naturally form hierarchies anyway, but without any formalism or recognition of them, the effects were made far more insidious
peteretep 10y ago
European class system is a hack around wealth in a society not always being distributed to the "right" people. Modern American class system simply assumes it has been distributed correctly and works around that.

chongli 10y ago

That depends on where you live. For me, it's fine, because we have lots of interesting and/or annoying weather. For others, it's the same boring sunny day every day.

bb101 10y ago

The weather is truly the #1 icebreaker here in the UK. However, if you've spoken to someone at least twice before and still only keep talking about the weather then you start to look dim. Amongst the upper and upper-middle classes, the concept and practice of politeness ensures conversation. Children are taught at a young age to take an interest (or at least feign an interest) in the other person and think of a line of conversation that may be appropriate. If you chat to a Brit and get beyond the weather, you'll notice that you will be asked a lot of questions. It's part conversation and part fact-finding. Some people would rather fall off the end of the Earth than ask where the other person went to school (i.e. it's rude to pry), but with 20 little questions we can work all that out and carry a conversation at the same time.