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I think brains very probably use quantum effects in ways we might not even be able to study with anything close to today's technology. As a result, individual n

I think brains very probably use quantum effects in ways we might not even be able to study with anything close to today's technology. As a result, individual neurons or groups of neurons can be way more complicated than we are expecting them to be. I'd say we're at least 2 major revolutions away from even coming close to what a chimpanzee's intellect, much less a human's.

return0 10y ago
Why are quantum effects complicated? They are random, however our behavior is not very random at all.
- dom0 10y ago
  Given that even photosynthesis uses quantum effects (yes, really) to get it's basic functions done it doesn't seem extremely far-fetched that nervous systems make use of these as well, assuming there is a theory that presupposes these effects (if we can explain neurons without them coherently, why should they involve these effects a.k.a. Occam's Razor).
  - return0 10y ago
    There 's nothing suggesting that neurons are not deterministic, in fact they are simulated pretty well with some cable theory and HH models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodgkin%E2%80%93Huxley_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodgkin%E2%80%93Huxley_model
- mathgenius 10y ago
  > Why are quantum effects complicated? because of entanglement.
ComputerGuru 10y ago
The difference between a chimpanzee's intellect and a human's is likely a matter of degree/quantity. We're so many orders of magnitude away from that sort of intuitive intellect that it's unfair to refer to it as simply an order of magnitude difference, IMHO.
gringent 10y ago
Is there any evidence that the functioning of neurons requires consideration of quantum effects acting on them? Maybe that's the case, but this sounds like it goes against Occam's razor, and give a lot of extra credit to the chaotic process of evolution that it was meaningfully able to harness these quantum effects.
WorldMaker 10y ago
This is at least partly relevant to the discussion: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-talk-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-talk-3 As a shorthand "quantum effects" are often hand-waved as crazy powerful "weird" things, but we can certainly model them and they really aren't as "magic" as a lot of popular science would have one believe (as much as even some of us otherwise rational people so strongly wish to believe in quantum magic).
- canadian_voter 10y ago
  Love the bit at the end: "Quantum computing and consciousness are both weird and therefore equivalent." Quantum consciousness doesn't sound very different from plain old vitalism.
- mathgenius 10y ago
  > but we can certainly model them Our ability to model quantum systems is feeble indeed. Anything more than about 40 qubits and it starts costing millions of dollars. 50 qubits just forget about it. There's plenty of quantum condensed matter physics that is just completely impossible to model. Even in chemistry, there are huge swathes of molecules that we fail to be able to model. This is hopefully going to be the "killer app" of quantum computers, btw.
Taniwha 10y ago
chemistry uses quantum effects .... so of course brains do. I think you have to be a bit more specific to claim something particularly special. I think it's much more likely the important difference is that brains are built in 3D allowing far far more connectivity than wiring in ~5 layers of metal between 2D transistors in the same plane does - it's that added complexity we don't have the technology to reproduce (yet) that's the issue
Retra 10y ago
Computers use quantum effects. That's how transistors function.

return0 10y ago

Why are quantum effects complicated? They are random, however our behavior is not very random at all.

dom0 10y ago
Given that even photosynthesis uses quantum effects (yes, really) to get it's basic functions done it doesn't seem extremely far-fetched that nervous systems make use of these as well, assuming there is a theory that presupposes these effects (if we can explain neurons without them coherently, why should they involve these effects a.k.a. Occam's Razor).
- return0 10y ago
  There 's nothing suggesting that neurons are not deterministic, in fact they are simulated pretty well with some cable theory and HH models. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodgkin%E2%80%93Huxley_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hodgkin%E2%80%93Huxley_model
mathgenius 10y ago
> Why are quantum effects complicated? because of entanglement.

ComputerGuru 10y ago

The difference between a chimpanzee's intellect and a human's is likely a matter of degree/quantity. We're so many orders of magnitude away from that sort of intuitive intellect that it's unfair to refer to it as simply an order of magnitude difference, IMHO.

gringent 10y ago

Is there any evidence that the functioning of neurons requires consideration of quantum effects acting on them? Maybe that's the case, but this sounds like it goes against Occam's razor, and give a lot of extra credit to the chaotic process of evolution that it was meaningfully able to harness these quantum effects.

WorldMaker 10y ago

This is at least partly relevant to the discussion: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-talk-3 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/the-talk-3 As a shorthand "quantum effects" are often hand-waved as crazy powerful "weird" things, but we can certainly model them and they really aren't as "magic" as a lot of popular science would have one believe (as much as even some of us otherwise rational people so strongly wish to believe in quantum magic).

canadian_voter 10y ago
Love the bit at the end: "Quantum computing and consciousness are both weird and therefore equivalent." Quantum consciousness doesn't sound very different from plain old vitalism.
mathgenius 10y ago
> but we can certainly model them Our ability to model quantum systems is feeble indeed. Anything more than about 40 qubits and it starts costing millions of dollars. 50 qubits just forget about it. There's plenty of quantum condensed matter physics that is just completely impossible to model. Even in chemistry, there are huge swathes of molecules that we fail to be able to model. This is hopefully going to be the "killer app" of quantum computers, btw.

Taniwha 10y ago

chemistry uses quantum effects .... so of course brains do. I think you have to be a bit more specific to claim something particularly special. I think it's much more likely the important difference is that brains are built in 3D allowing far far more connectivity than wiring in ~5 layers of metal between 2D transistors in the same plane does - it's that added complexity we don't have the technology to reproduce (yet) that's the issue

Retra 10y ago

Computers use quantum effects. That's how transistors function.