5 ms·

From Esperanto to ET: Artificial Languages in the Internet Era (2004)

16 points by diodorus 10y ago

kiba 10y ago
If we're going to communicate to aliens, the idea would be to use the periodic table as a basis? Or physical constants? Or math?
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  Those all still use language for everything outside the most basic form. Communication would be interesting to say the least I would think.
- cooper12 10y ago
  NASA has you covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record#Playback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record#Playback
- esuzeb 10y ago
  The movie Arrival (2016) covers this topic nicely. Apart from that it's also an excellent movie all overall.
anotheryou 10y ago
Another tiny new language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona "14 phonemes and 120 root words"
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  Toni Poka is neat, but not very expressive (as the intent. It makes a fun little language to learn though. Engadget (think it was them) did a lengthy write up awhile back. I'd rather learn something mind expanding like Lojban than restrictive like Toki Pona. However, I did read that it can be a useful exercise to come up with phrases to explain a concept/word your language doesn't have. Toki Pona probably doesn't have "computer", but maybe you can represent that with "glowing communications box"?
  - anotheryou 10y ago
    I chose it because the effort is so low and I wondered what thinking with such limited vocabulary feels like. Computer might be: ilo sona - device of knowledge
    - throwaway7645 10y ago
      Haha. Glad you were able to translate that.
  - schoen 10y ago
    I'd agree toki pona is unlikely to be as mind-expanding as Lojban, but the kind of creativity that you mention, working within constraints, can be "mind-expanding" too -- just as composing poetry within a specific form, or practicing constrained writing, can be. Even though there are some fundamental designed-in limitations in toki pona (for example, we don't officially have comparatives, relative clauses, or quotation! you can say "a is a little x and b is very x" or use a kind of formula with "x this: y"), it can be surprising how many things can be expressed reasonably well given the effort.
skriticos2 10y ago
I speak Esperanto (at least used to, I grew up with it), but I have come to learn the practicality of a language is in it's usage, and so English wins out (I'm from Germany, so English is not my first language either). English is also an interesting language, as it's a funny mix of other languages in it's history and shaped out fairly leanable (limited number of weird inflections, usage of an alphabet, etc.). Furthermore English stopped to be strongly correlated to a single country during the colonization era and England's diminishing influence thereafter. This makes it well suited to be an accepted international language. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that in most cases the objective of these artificial languages used to be to create an independent and easy to learn language for human communication, but in reality a language that fulfills this purpose grew out of an existing language and at the same time it uproots is origins and becomes this collectively shaped something. History is full of irony indeed. :)
- throwaway7645 10y ago
  I'm learning Esperanto and it is extremely easy to learn as everything is regular (that I've seen so far)and no trilling "r's"...etc. English has so many gotchas and exceptions. English has become a lingua franca only because of economics. French used to be for the same reason. Esperanto would be far more natural though and even ease communications at the UN. Everyone has just one language to translate to.
  - skriticos2 10y ago
    I heard this opinion before.. but I also speak Hungarian from birth and a tiny bit Japanese (out of hobby). English is rather simple. Not as simple as Esperanto mind you, but simple enough (comparatively) that it beats most alternatives that don't try to bootstrap something new. Also, Hungarian has a lot of rolling "r's", so I wouldn't complain about English in this respect ever.. really. Esperanto has it's perks though, so I do encourage you to learn it. It makes learning other languages that much easier and the community is nice and global, though somewhat eccentric. ;)
  - k__ 10y ago
    Esperanto is still a western centric language.
vorg 10y ago
> cultural neutrality is a fiction because all auxlangs inevitably reflect the culture of their inventors Good examples would be the immediately preceding examples of vocabulary simplification: > the equivalents of “good,” “better,” and “best” would come out as “good,” “gooder,” and “goodest.” Why not "good", "a-little-better", "a-lot-better", and "goodest" ? Using three steps in such comparisons is a cultural choice. > “black,” “gray,” and “white” could be “black,” “semi-black,” and “anti-black.” Why not "white", "semi-white", and "anti-white" ? Using black as the base form is a cultural choice.
fsiefken 10y ago
* Most Alien-like conlang: Ithkuil http://www.ithkuil.net/ http://www.ithkuil.net/ http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beg... * Most SF-like conlang: Lojban https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban * Most practical conlang: Elefen http://elefen.org/ http://elefen.org/ * Most fascinating natural language: Piraha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language#Recent_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language#Recent_co... http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/04/16/the-interpreter-2 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/04/16/the-interpreter...

16 points by diodorus 10y ago

kiba 10y ago

If we're going to communicate to aliens, the idea would be to use the periodic table as a basis? Or physical constants? Or math?

throwaway7645 10y ago
Those all still use language for everything outside the most basic form. Communication would be interesting to say the least I would think.
cooper12 10y ago
NASA has you covered: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record#Playback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record#Playback
esuzeb 10y ago
The movie Arrival (2016) covers this topic nicely. Apart from that it's also an excellent movie all overall.

anotheryou 10y ago

Another tiny new language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona "14 phonemes and 120 root words"

throwaway7645 10y ago
Toni Poka is neat, but not very expressive (as the intent. It makes a fun little language to learn though. Engadget (think it was them) did a lengthy write up awhile back. I'd rather learn something mind expanding like Lojban than restrictive like Toki Pona. However, I did read that it can be a useful exercise to come up with phrases to explain a concept/word your language doesn't have. Toki Pona probably doesn't have "computer", but maybe you can represent that with "glowing communications box"?
- anotheryou 10y ago
  I chose it because the effort is so low and I wondered what thinking with such limited vocabulary feels like. Computer might be: ilo sona - device of knowledge
  - throwaway7645 10y ago
    Haha. Glad you were able to translate that.
- schoen 10y ago
  I'd agree toki pona is unlikely to be as mind-expanding as Lojban, but the kind of creativity that you mention, working within constraints, can be "mind-expanding" too -- just as composing poetry within a specific form, or practicing constrained writing, can be. Even though there are some fundamental designed-in limitations in toki pona (for example, we don't officially have comparatives, relative clauses, or quotation! you can say "a is a little x and b is very x" or use a kind of formula with "x this: y"), it can be surprising how many things can be expressed reasonably well given the effort.

skriticos2 10y ago

I speak Esperanto (at least used to, I grew up with it), but I have come to learn the practicality of a language is in it's usage, and so English wins out (I'm from Germany, so English is not my first language either). English is also an interesting language, as it's a funny mix of other languages in it's history and shaped out fairly leanable (limited number of weird inflections, usage of an alphabet, etc.). Furthermore English stopped to be strongly correlated to a single country during the colonization era and England's diminishing influence thereafter. This makes it well suited to be an accepted international language. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that in most cases the objective of these artificial languages used to be to create an independent and easy to learn language for human communication, but in reality a language that fulfills this purpose grew out of an existing language and at the same time it uproots is origins and becomes this collectively shaped something. History is full of irony indeed. :)

throwaway7645 10y ago
I'm learning Esperanto and it is extremely easy to learn as everything is regular (that I've seen so far)and no trilling "r's"...etc. English has so many gotchas and exceptions. English has become a lingua franca only because of economics. French used to be for the same reason. Esperanto would be far more natural though and even ease communications at the UN. Everyone has just one language to translate to.
- skriticos2 10y ago
  I heard this opinion before.. but I also speak Hungarian from birth and a tiny bit Japanese (out of hobby). English is rather simple. Not as simple as Esperanto mind you, but simple enough (comparatively) that it beats most alternatives that don't try to bootstrap something new. Also, Hungarian has a lot of rolling "r's", so I wouldn't complain about English in this respect ever.. really. Esperanto has it's perks though, so I do encourage you to learn it. It makes learning other languages that much easier and the community is nice and global, though somewhat eccentric. ;)
- k__ 10y ago
  Esperanto is still a western centric language.

vorg 10y ago

> cultural neutrality is a fiction because all auxlangs inevitably reflect the culture of their inventors Good examples would be the immediately preceding examples of vocabulary simplification: > the equivalents of “good,” “better,” and “best” would come out as “good,” “gooder,” and “goodest.” Why not "good", "a-little-better", "a-lot-better", and "goodest" ? Using three steps in such comparisons is a cultural choice. > “black,” “gray,” and “white” could be “black,” “semi-black,” and “anti-black.” Why not "white", "semi-white", and "anti-white" ? Using black as the base form is a cultural choice.

fsiefken 10y ago

* Most Alien-like conlang: Ithkuil http://www.ithkuil.net/ http://www.ithkuil.net/ http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beginners http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/12/24/utopian-for-beg... * Most SF-like conlang: Lojban https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban * Most practical conlang: Elefen http://elefen.org/ http://elefen.org/ * Most fascinating natural language: Piraha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language#Recent_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language#Recent_co... http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/04/16/the-interpreter-2 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/04/16/the-interpreter...